no center no periphery

[Ross K.]

lets clear this up 315.
when in 'now' all feelings of being vanishes, but it does not remain. for instance i may be walking keeping mind in now and ask my self "why is this moment not perfect", or something to that effect and look around while looking in and being present, then I may see my body in the periphery and it looks like a foreign object. mind is totally peaceful. emptiness pervades nothingness and it is just what is here. but, it reverts back to center / witness me-ness
gross self has been seen straight through. but risidual "i" maker wordless feeling thing is in tact.

[Ilona]

Hi Ross K. great to have you here.
So you expext that all feeling of aliveness/being to vanish? hm, I'm sure it will once the body is dead.
Rather than trying to get rid of feeling of being, look at what is that feeling itself. Observe it and tell me, is the center personal?
how about a cat, it operates from center of being, right? driven by brain?
what drives a human?

[Ross K.]

No not aliveness just being/craving.
selfless, already got that part. it is not self. reset button was hit at least 2 times. I know that one can dwell in the unbound state because I have temporary flashes of no center what so ever. this is different than no self (anatta). I'm referring to conceit (mano in pali). I have abided (or non-abided) in emptiness for a number of hours straight my concern is bridging the gap to feeling fucking awesome like this all the time. and it is possible. this was part of the doubt that was done away with in stream entry, along with personality belief/belief in separate self, and my stupid attachment to thinking being a monk would make it possible top really practice, i.e. attachment to rules and rituals.

[Ilona]

Are you looking for permanent state? State is never permanent. Life is flow. Just like water in the stream, never same, each moment fresh.
What is 'me'? Describe the best that you can.

[Ross K.]

"me" is a word used to describe ownership, which I do not have, because if I did I'd make the sensations how I wanted them to be. even though self is seen through shitty energetic stuff is going on, quite intense currently, I still get angry briefly (usually is more physical tension now than mental torment). one thing that's been happening is extremely loud ringing/humming/white noise vibrations, looking directly at it has made it even more extreme.
no center flow. just this.
No not looking for a permanent state just cessation of this finite craving for a state of being. witness temporarily dissolves when I just attend to now in normal consciousness. specifically paying attention in a normal consciousness way to phenomena coming into the sense spheres at the point of contact. so its a this, this, this, this, now, now, now meditation/ direct mode of perception type approach.
It hard to describe 'me' because I don't identify with anything, just makes communication easier.
I get the opposite of deja vu (i cant remember the word never been here before feeling) a lot now.

[Ilona]

Can you look at thought with though now.
me, i are thoughs. thoghts are labels. they are pointing to something and we use words for comunication. Although thoughts are real, do they necesarily point to real stuff?

But, where do thoughts come from? can you look and tell what do you notice about thoughts themselves, just look deeply and see what comes up.

[Ross K.]

ahh now were getting closer.
this is the exact inquiry that led me to start using the witness as focus (and within a month I attained stream entry). That is, seeing if I can locate thoughts. I found then and even more now that wherever I think thought is coming from; usually somewhere inside the brain. if I put my attention there it always moves. this is just witness 101 stuff. good stuff but, old news. this is excactly what I mean by paying attention to the point of contact. this would be the sixth sense of mind sense door. it was good that you asked me that because I was off somewhere else, and this is my theme, seeing the emptiness in thoughts and dwelling in that emptiness with a feeling of absolute vastness. when the words registered in my brain the center went away for a second.
is 315 your real name lol? is this Elena?

[Ilona]

I'm Ilona. Elena is Joy in here.
Ok. So thoughts. Is there a witness behind thoughts or 'I am witnessing' is just another thought passing by effortlessly?

Mind works as a labelling machine. Experience is labelled and I is added in the mix.
Like: I am breathing now. -- breathing is happening. Is there an I that breaths? If so, how does it do that?
I am waking-- walking happens.
I am sleeping-- sleeping happens.
I am witnessing-- witnessing happens.
I am thinking-- thinking happens. Is there a thinker?

Can a thought think?

[Ross K.]

just thought with no me (selfing). this is the Buddha's instructions to Bahaya. check. can a thought think? hm there is nothing. ah not close enough, percipient of nothing.
just walking
just sleeping
only seeing
just thought. this, just this is perfect.
This is just repeating what I said in an earlier post.
I could live out the rest of my life with the changes I've made, or should I say that have happened. But, there is more to see. pure (regular/normal) consciousness of just normal things is my aim. I'm tired of the jhanas and nanas. just this. this thus-ness such-ness.
the light flickers, from in-here-ness duality to vastness just-here-ness non-duality were all 'here' with everything.
now is taming the ox.

[Ilona]

Changes, choices, what makes them? How does it work, Ross? You made choices or it only appears so?
Is it true, that there is no entity at all hiding behind word 'me'?

[Ross K.]

decision are much easier with there being less stickiness. I do have preferences.
I don't think this inquiry is gonna do the job for final stages, could get someone to stream entry. just because I use "i" "me" and "mine" doesn't mean I believe it is a real solid agent.
a personal choice that one makes doesn't imply belief in separate self. that's just taking no self to literally, even though there is absolutely no self.
just for clarification, the actual path and fruition moments were absolutely without choice. I didn't complain either. totally unexpected and much simpler than I expected. I almost felt violated, you see, I heard a thousand times its right here and now. but, I took that with a grain of salt. when it happened on 7/26, I was like really, no really, really it really has been here the whole damn time. I thought all that non-dual stuff was bullshit. but, there it is. mind stops completely and restarts to a new world.
C'mon, is that all you got lol!

[Ilona]

The focus of this forum is the gate. That means we help to see through illusion of separate entity. It's not about the end to sensations. It's a beginning of seeing that life happens by itself to no one.

Are you saying loud and clear that you have crossed the gate? If so, then give us a description here what happened, how it happened, convince everyone that you are free from illusion of self.
Describe, please what is self, how does it work, how does it feel to be free and how would you explain that to somebody, who never heard about it.

[Ross K.]

I'll get back to you on this. Gotta go take a bunch of trash from the monastery to a landfill. you know real life stuff. I type very slow with only 2 fingers. I do have 10 just use only 2. anyway, should have it up within 6 hours. thanks.

[Ross K.]

here it is.......
Grew up in a rough environment, addiction/alcoholism was the norm. I developed a hard core addiction to drugs and alcohol. I wanted to run from all the fucked up shit in my life. So, I used whatever I could get my hands on. Usually, to the point of blacking out, or falling asleep. I’ve choked on my own vomit in my sleep (my mom rolled me over, heard me gurgling) to drunk to notice. Pissed the bed and my pants to many times to count. Already was a bed wetter. This just prolonged the period of time I was a bed wetter….fast forward…. Got into legal trouble trying to steal wiskey from grocery store, stealing change out of cars (busted for stealing 0.63 cents).

Was put into treatment (twice) last time I stayed clean & sober. (12/25/99 is my recovery anniversary.) started attending aa/na meetings, got a sponsor, did meetings daily, worked the 12 steps, the 11th step stood out the most (sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of his will for us and the power to carry that out). I remember reading something in some literature, on this step about research meditative traditions. And, I took that advice.

I stumbled across Buddhism in 2002, and started meditating right away. I was all about pragmatism from the start. In 2003 I went to my 1st retreat at the Bhavana Society in West Virginia (my current residence for the last 6 months) for one week.

2005 or ‘06 I started to practice on a daily basis

Also in 2006 I Visited Abyhagiri Theravadan Buddhist Monastery in Redwood Valley Ca. for one week.

2009- Back To Bhavana for a week

2010- Week visit to Metta Forest Monastery in Valley Center Ca.

2011- March 25-present residing at Bhavana.

I was sincerely practicing, and started getting into deeply concentrated states called Jhana. A week or two after achieving 1st and 2nd jhana I stumble across the many facets of Pragmatic Dharma movement. Daniel M. Ingram’s book, Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha. Kenneth Folk. An online Dharma community/forum called The Dharma Overground (Dho) (this is where I ran into Elena).

I started imploying methods that where advertised on Dho, specifically dwelling in awareness itself, or more commonly known as simply the “witness” (this is where one objectifies the apparent subject; awareness is turned back on itself). With this new “tool”, added to my already extensive knowledge of traditional Thervadan Buddhism, I started zooming through Jhana/concentration states, via a method called riding jhanic arc via the witness (Google “riding the jhanic arc via the witness” a blogsite called the Hamilton Project should show up.) What a breath of fresh air form the confines of my limited dogmatic Traditional Thervadan view point, I was so righteous and so not right.

I started investigating reality and the way I view it in these super finite levels of mind and looking for how they are inconstant, unsatisfactory, and void of a self. Looking at the sense of that which knows and seeing it flux, and morph, subtle layers of trying to be something other than what is now i.e.stress. This was a revolutionary huge shift for me. In July I crossed paths with Elena. At first I looked at her work with a knee jerk reaction, and being kind jerk in the process. I kept the door open though, because as you might recall I have a knack for pragmatism.

So stuff started making sense, and practice was getting intense. One day in mid July, I was browsing through one of elena’s blogs and a sentence popped out at me (don’t remember what it said exactly, of course some thing about no self). I then walked up to my kuti (that’s what we call cabins at a theravadan monastery), and started reading Ken Wilbers book, “No Boundary” again a sentence popped out at me. And I felt my mind slow down, and slow down, and wordlessly I realized there is no self. Within the next split second time stood still, and, restarted like someone hit a reset button. Upon emerging from that, I said out load to my self, “really? no, really, its been here the whole time” for a split second I almost felt violated, then I burst out into laughter. I laughed and laughed and laughed with no “I” anywhere. Then the thought arose, “this is crazy, I’m out in the middle of the woods laughing my ass off by myself.” That just made me laugh more, as another thought arose like so, “there is no- where for the bullshit to stick to”. I put the book down and thought, “I don’t need that anymore.” (I haven’t picked it up since). And, I was filled with a great relief and sense of accomplishment.

The after glow….
The honey moon phase, or as its called in the insight maps of Theravada Buddhism, Review.
I found I was able to access the deepest states of concentration in mere minutes. Going up and down the Jhanic arc several times in a 1 hour with utmost ease. And life seemed to have a fairy tale like feel to it. Also could will the mind into the freeze frame state (or non-state) and hit that same reset button in my mind and feel totally fresh again. Overall sense of well-being day to day was consistently and effortlessly peaceful and serene.

Coming up to now…..
I’ve had many mind blowing experiences of what the fuck was that type events in meditation, strange energy stuff, extreme ringing in the ears. And often if not dwelling in the center feel in the core of my being (which is under investigation) even though the center point thing feels great I can see subtle levels of stress. It like its trying to be something always in a wordless thirst type way.


Now….
Continuing to look and disentangle the very core / center / craving / ignorance. There are periods of time I have dwelt it total centerlessness / non location. So I believe if I can have glimpses of that I can eventually remain in that here-ness and now-ness for good.
-Ross

[Ilona]

Ross, thank you for writing this. I see that you have seen through illusion and i'd like to ask you some questions, if you could answer them simply as you see now.

What is the self, how does it work?
How would you explain no self thing to somebody who have never heard about it before?
Would you like to help others through the gate?

Thank you.

Great to hear that elena's blog gave you a push. :)