Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

[Tao]

Hi Gomi

Several observations...There appears to be so much trying, craving, crying out for freedom... and yet it now appears that such intense desire is causing much mental and emotional strain. True?

Definitely, yes.

Direct Experience is quite simple. It shifts off track when one mistakes analyzing thought content as part of the DE. Can you see that sometimes this occurs?

Yes definitely, it happens a lot.

Are you finding that your old ways aren't working and can't seem to hold onto DE all the time? Paradoxically, the transition takes a while. (This is where the chuckling helps.)

If there is no trying then there is little or no DE. So there has to be some sort of intention set, to LOOK.

Some past pointers -which you have already SEEN:
EVERYTHING is conceptual except direct experience. Keep asking yourself to make a true statements solely based on direct experience. Question the 'reliability and credibility of the content of thoughts'.This process is about seeing what is really going on in your experience. It does *not* fix anything, nor change how things are. It is not trying to get rid of depression,fear,or add happiness and joy. It is in seeing what is real in the moment. If direct experience is the only real thing, what does that tell you about the contents of thoughts?

That the content of thoughts is an add-on, not real.

i know you know this, but it bears repeating when one is in the throes of intense emotion. The nature of our conditioning is to want uncomfortable states to disappear.This is not what you seemed to come to LU for.

It's just a powerful desire, for love, for freedom. There are bound to be thoughts that want uncomfortable states to disappear because there is desire, strong existential desire. There's nothing that can be done about these thoughts, they arise in waves and cause a lot of suffering. Suffering is the add-on for pain and/or discomfort, it is the suffering 'I' got on this path for. It is the suffering that desires an end of suffering.

It is not necessary to analyze everything. In fact, it gets in the way. Let's not sabotage the inquiry with well meaning analysis. It's hopeless anyway. Eventually, the mind either gives up in resignation or panics. Sound familiar? It only leads to more angst.

Yes very familiar.

WATCH THOUGHTS AS PRESENCE.

A while back i gave you this exercise. You answered the questions but did not do the exercise. Please try to do this several times before the next post.

What is needed:
Table, chair, several books, candle, match, and either a blank wall, solid cloth or board for a backdrop.

Setting it up:

Sit in front of a desk or a table. Place a candle on the table. If there isn't a blank wall, place cardboard behind the candle so your vision is able to rest only on the lit candle, not pictures, windows, etc. You will want to sit in front of the candle, so that the flame of the candle is at eye level, an arms length away. Use books to adjust the height of the candle so it is at eye level. Once set up, darken the room. Shut the lights, close the blinds, etc.

1. Sit with your eyes open and focus gently at the flame for around 3 minutes. It might be comfortable to sit with your hands resting gently on your lap.Try not to focus with intense concentration. Gently observe the flame. Thoughts will go in and out. Sounds will be heard. It is perfectly fine for this to happen. It is OK to just observe the flame alone and/or have the flame and thoughts come into play. If you just notice thoughts without the image, gently bring your attention back to the flame.
2. Close your eyes for another 3 minutes. Gently observe. Do you notice the after-image of the flame? Mentally place the image of the flame in between your eyes. Remember, it is OK to see the image, it is OK to have thoughts and the image. When it is just thoughts, gently return to the image. When the image seems to have disappeared, wait and see if it returns. When it has fully disappeared, open your eyes.
3. Repeat this process twice.
If you have time, try it a couple of times within the next 24 hours.

Hang in there hon. When SEEing occurs, as it appears to be happening with you, all the old conditioning seems to show itself in spades. This is very natural. The yin and yang. Things are going perfectly. Nothing remains the same except what is real.

So much love,
Gomi

I've only had time to do it once so far so need more time.

What do you notice in DE?

The usual thoughts arising. Analysing the experiment, figuring out how to reply to this, trying to figure it out conceptually. Then on to story thoughts, maybe I should ring him, speak to her etc. Ooh I should have done this and that. "Oh no, I should be present" Thoughts that tell me to give up the experiment and do it later. Thoughts that plan the rest of my day.

I can see these are just habitual thoughts arising.

What happens as you watch the image as thoughts and feelings appear?

Actually the candle is remarkably useful at 'keeping me present' so to speak. Thoughts and feelings just arise and are not believed so easily.

Did you have to DO anything or did the after-image just appear on it's own?

At first it felt like I had to look for it. I couldn't get the room as dark as I would have liked. But then it appeared. It started off orangey red, after a minute or so it passed through the yellow and greens, and then after another minute it went blue, purple, dark purple, until it was gone.

Are thoughts, feelings, body sensations etc. abiding IN Presence or is there a separation of these occurrences from Presence when conditioning occurs?

I don't fully understand the question. They are just arising in presence. If they are believed then there is no presence.

Is there identification anywhere? If so, where is the location in Direct Experience?

The content of thoughts.

I'd like more time with this. Perhaps to carry on doing it.

Benny

[Gomi]

Dear Benny,

Two sentences for you to respond to:

... it is the suffering 'I' got on this path for.

1. There is no Benny, no suffering and no path.

2. This IS IT ! Can you accept This regardless of what IT is? The total Reality is your current Experiencing.

Love,
Gomi

[Tao]

Hi Gomi

Two sentences for you to respond to:

1. There is no Benny, no suffering and no path.

No, but there is bondage to these appearances.

2. This IS IT ! Can you accept This regardless of what IT is? The total Reality is your current Experiencing.

It's beautiful.

Benny

[Gomi]

This is not a ping pong match! The 2 sentences were pointers!! They are intended to take you out of mental analysis, out of illusion and recognizing what is REAL!!!. They are asking for SEEing. Watching thoughts as Presence. Let these pointers live within you during the day.

Please go back and revisit these 2 questions plus a 3rd...

1. There is no Benny, no suffering and no path.

2. How is bondage experienced as anything more than a concept ?

3. IS IT ! Can you accept This regardless of what IT is? The total Reality is your current Experiencing.

Go into Direct Experience with this. Hang out with the pointers... Allow for receptivity. REALLY LOOK!!! If emotions or stories arise, stick with the DE. Does fear arise? Look with SEEing eyes. If analysis wants to appear, notice it and return to DE. Check it all out with DE-only. Please report.

~~~

Still keep the focus on 'Watching thoughts AS PRESENCE'. Love that you want to keep up doing the exercise. In a couple of days please report.

Some fine tuning:

What do you notice in DE?

The usual thoughts arising. Analysing the experiment, figuring out how to reply to this, trying to figure it out conceptually. Then on to story thoughts, maybe I should ring him, speak to her etc. Ooh I should have done this and that. "Oh no, I should be present" Thoughts that tell me to give up the experiment and do it later. Thoughts that plan the rest of my day. I can see these are just habitual thoughts arising.

Wonderful SEEing the habitual thoughts arising. What do you do when you see habitual thoughts or analysis arising? Simply, without effort or strain, return the attention to the flame.You can also probably see how you are sabotaging DE by analyzing. That is a first step-noticing it when it occurs. Nice. Thoughts WILL appear. Let them run their course. Analyzing, sabotages.

Actually the candle is remarkably useful at 'keeping me present' so to speak. Thoughts and feelings just arise and are not believed so easily.

:-)

They are just arising in presence. If they are believed then there is no presence.

Bingo!!!

Love,
Gomi

[Tao]

Hi Gomi

They are just arising in presence. If they are believed then there is no presence.

Bingo!!!

1. There is no Benny, no suffering and no path.

2. How is bondage experienced as anything more than a concept ?

When there is no presence, suffering can occur. Strong depression has been arising. In LOOKing, nothing needs to be done, there is just sensations and thoughts arising. With presence there is no suffering as a result of these sensations/thoughts. Without presence, there is suffering. Suffering is real.

Wonderful SEEing the habitual thoughts arising. What do you do when you see habitual thoughts or analysis arising? Simply, without effort or strain, return the attention to the flame.You can also probably see how you are sabotaging DE by analyzing. That is a first step-noticing it when it occurs. Nice. Thoughts WILL appear. Let them run their course. Analyzing, sabotages.

When thoughts/analysing arises, and there is presence, they are just seen to be arising, with no investment in them. Without presence, the analyzing sabotages.

3. IS IT ! Can you accept This regardless of what IT is? The total Reality is your current Experiencing.

I can accept it yes. That does not stop thoughts coming in that desire a more perfect future moment, and when there is no presence then these thoughts create dissatisfaction with what IS.

Benny

[Gomi]

Benny, dearest,

When there is no presence, suffering can occur. Strong depression has been arising. In LOOKing, nothing needs to be done, there is just sensations and thoughts arising. With presence there is no suffering as a result of these sensations/thoughts. Without presence, there is suffering. Suffering is real.

There appears to be a BIG time reward in suffering. What are you getting out of focusing upon suffering?
Could it be "If I am suffering or in pain I feel alive?"
What makes suffering real?
Is there an I?
What can be experiencing suffering?
Is it suffering that is real or the story that attaches to it that?
When suffering shows itself, can that be used as a pointer to return to Direct Experience?
Since the' Watching thoughts as Presence' exercise brings awareness back into Presence, how bout using it more?

I can accept it yes. That does not stop thoughts coming in that desire a more perfect future moment, and when there is no presence then these thoughts create dissatisfaction with what IS.

Thoughts come in.
Does desire come in before or after a thought arises?
Are thoughts desires?
Are desires stories that are attached to thought?
Desires? Dissatisfaction? Are these remotely possible in Direct Experience?
What would a perfect moment be? Would it be dependent upon an outer experience?

Suffering is real.

Write about a strongly emotional experience, perhaps one in which you felt badly hurt or grossly misunderstood.
When you have written it all out in its gory details, start editing it like this: first cross out all the adjectives and adverbs. Next go through and cross out anything that was what you thought rather than what actually occurred. Cross out anything that is not Who, What, When or Where. Cross out all the Whys and the explanations. Now you are getting closer to reality! Notice how we use modifiers and assumptions to create a story that embellishes reality beyond recognition! Finally, reduce what is left to a "headline"; just the bare minimum of fact. (You do not need to post the experience, just what opened, if anything, afterwards.)

They say there is a doorway from heart to heart, but what is the use of a door when there are no walls?”
― Rumi
xoxoxo
Gomi

[Gomi]

PS...

These thoughts create dissatisfaction with what IS.

What is this dissatisfaction? Is it a process where story about how it might be different then followed by sensation then by labeling ? Can you see this and chuckle or do you get sucked in totally ?
xoxo

[Tao]

There appears to be a BIG time reward in suffering. What are you getting out of focusing upon suffering?
Could it be "If I am suffering or in pain I feel alive?"

Last night I went into the pain and it felt alive. There is a lot of energy/power in the emotional pain.

What makes suffering real?
Is there an I?
What can be experiencing suffering?

Is it suffering that is real or the story that attaches to it that?

There is a deep existential yearning, a feeling of true heart break. There is a story around this, but that is just on the concept level. The longing can be overwhelming. It does appear to be the story that turns the longing into pain/suffering. Without story there is just the emotional sensation which can feel deeply beautiful, neither good nor bad, sad in nature, but very powerful at times. The stories are really quite persistent though.

When suffering shows itself, can that be used as a pointer to return to Direct Experience?

Yes, and often it does. But with everyday activities/distractions, long periods go by without returning to direct experience very often. The pain mounts up, as 'story mode' is allowed to play out for hours without much presence.

Since the' Watching thoughts as Presence' exercise brings awareness back into Presence, how bout using it more?

One tries, but it is difficult to maintain presence all day every day.

thoughts come in.
Does desire come in before or after a thought arises?
Are thoughts desires?
Are desires stories that are attached to thought?
Desires? Dissatisfaction? Are these remotely possible in Direct Experience?
What would a perfect moment be? Would it be dependent upon an outer experience?

Thoughts create the dissatisfaction and desires yes. In direct experience there is just experience. Nothing needs to be added or taken away. So, the suffering is a reminder to LOOK, but this doesn't always happen whilst activities of the day are distracting one from presence.

Write about a strongly emotional experience, perhaps one in which you felt badly hurt or grossly misunderstood.
When you have written it all out in its gory details, start editing it like this: first cross out all the adjectives and adverbs. Next go through and cross out anything that was what you thought rather than what actually occurred. Cross out anything that is not Who, What, When or Where. Cross out all the Whys and the explanations. Now you are getting closer to reality! Notice how we use modifiers and assumptions to create a story that embellishes reality beyond recognition! Finally, reduce what is left to a "headline"; just the bare minimum of fact. (You do not need to post the experience, just what opened, if anything, afterwards.)

They say there is a doorway from heart to heart, but what is the use of a door when there are no walls?”
― Rum

Need to come back to this.

Bennyheadline

[Tao]

PS...

These thoughts create dissatisfaction with what IS.

What is this dissatisfaction? Is it a process where story about how it might be different then followed by sensation then by labeling ? Can you see this and chuckle or do you get sucked in totally ?
xoxo

Depends. Rarely I get sucked in totally. There is often some awareness of what is happening. But if I'm busy in the day, then there is much less awareness. Only if I really LOOK can I chuckle at what is happening

[Gomi]

Dear Benny,

i've been rereading your past posts.

Have you seen through the illusion of a separate self?
Yes.
'I' return to direct experience, to being in the now, SEEing, often. And much more so when suffering is occuring. conditioning does reappear in a heartbeat, and is there most of each day, unless 'I' put effort in to LOOK. Naturally there is no 'I' putting effort in, but it appears that way, and that way is the way it must play out. So long as there is conditioning, there will be an 'I' putting effort in.

Has there has a shift and 'you' have actually gone thru the gate? As it has been pointed out over and over, seeing thru the illusion of the false self is not here for changing states of mind or emotion. It is seeing thru the illusory states. It does not mean all the different states of mind will disappear.

i realize you are in the midst of heavy conditioning... Going thru the gate does not mean you will be left 'alone'. There is much support in the LU community. There are focused support groups strictly dealing with conditioning. The intent of this forum is in seeing thru the illusion of the false self.

Once you have gone thru the gate, if wanted, please know 'i' would be here for you as well.

Let's revisit the 5 questions, one at a time.
Please answer the following question with total honesty and in your own words:

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

Love,
Gomi

[Tao]

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, the 'me' is just an appearance. The 'me' only appears in the content of thoughts, yet these thoughts simply arise of their own accord without a 'me' controlling them. 'I' am imagined in thoughts, along with the story of 'me'. These are deeply conditioned and habitual thoughts and they have developed great momentum in projecting the illusion of 'I'. Strong conditioning remains. Identification happens. But when LOOKING, one can see how the illusion of 'I' is made up. There wasn't ever a 'me', even though appearances can be deceptive.

[Tao]

p.s internet is very poor here at the moment so I'm posting what I can for now. :)

Benny

[Gomi]

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, the 'me' is just an appearance. The 'me' only appears in the content of thoughts, yet these thoughts simply arise of their own accord without a 'me' controlling them. 'I' am imagined in thoughts, along with the story of 'me'. These are deeply conditioned and habitual thoughts and they have developed great momentum in projecting the illusion of 'I'. Strong conditioning remains. Identification happens. But when LOOKING, one can see how the illusion of 'I' is made up. There wasn't ever a 'me', even though appearances can be deceptive.

Nice, hon.

The next 2 questions go together:

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

3) How does it feel to see this?

Love,
Gomi

[Tao]

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.

It is the cyclical and superstitious nature of the analytical mind that creates patterns and familiarity, rather than infinite possibilities. With an open mind, one can LOOK and see that there is nothing more than conditioned assumptions that hold the illusion together. Thoughts arise, and these thoughts create the dualistic appearance that there is an 'I' that experiences the world. It is an illusion of separation, a subject/object distinction. The body, through deep set habit, is taken to be the 'I'. Feelings that are experienced, are, through habit, supposed to be coming from the body, and it is assumed that there is an 'edge' to these feelings, i.e where the skin meets the 'outside world', but looking closely, there is just feelings arising and such boundaries are taken to be real through nothing more than habitual thought.

Experience happens, and perceptions and thoughts LABEL the experience and project it into 3 dimensions. A sound is heard, and instantly, thoughts assume what the sound is, i.e a bird in a tree. An image arises of the bird in a tree in relation to 'I' the body. It doesn't matter how accurate this assumption is, so long as the experience can be neatly filed away into familiar and known territory. The logic mind has to explain everything in order to feel safe. Nothing is allowed to be left as a mystery.

It is fear that holds this together. Fear arises in it's many forms, and the stronger the fear, the more frantically thoughts arise to arrange the universe in order to feel safe and comfortable. Thoughts create the appearance that there is an 'I' that can control existence in some way in order to make it better, safer, more pleasant and so on.

Thoughts have built up so much momentum, that they seem to have 'overtaken' awareness. Thoughts jump around every experience so quickly that awareness is not able to SEE what is going on, it is here that these habitual thoughts are 'believed' and so the illusion is maintained without questioning it's reality.

Thoughts also create the illusion of a linear time-line in which the 'I' has a past and future and a story of 'my' life. Thoughts arise that project into the future and try to plan or arrange it in some way, even though, when the future comes, it is still the NOW. Memories arise too, in order to strengthen the story, past arises in thoughts.

All thoughts arise in the NOW, thoughts are in direct experience. However, the CONTENT of thoughts is never direct experience but projects away from direct experience. The content of thoughts is either projecting to past or future, or it is labelling the NOW, and in labelling the NOW, the NOW has already passed. So the content of thoughts serves only to remove one from direct experience.

Another assumption is that 'I' am the controller of thoughts, or that 'I' am thoughts. On looking, it is very clear that there is no control over thoughts, no knowing where they come from, and no stopping them from arising. So the controller is just another thought.

The logical mind has developed such a momentum of needing to analyze and conceptualize, that a CONCEPTUAL view of the world is taken to be reality. No concept is real, it is only concept. All that is real is direct experience. Concept is just concept. The 'I' is a concept.

3) How does it feel to see this?

This is tricky to answer. In one sense it doesn't feel any different. Life still carries on, along with the illusion. Thoughts and feelings still arise and suffering is still experienced. It was accepted a long time ago that things are not as they seem, and so it comes as no surprise.

On the other hand, there is great relief, to know that fear too is illusion. There is nothing more than feelings arising, but it is the thought that 'I' must be protected that creates worry. When there is nothing that needs to be protected, and feelings are allowed to arise, then there is no more worry. This is happening more and more. Feelings are allowed to be, rather than resisted. There is more of a letting go of control, and hence there is less suffering. Awareness is much stronger now, and with it, the illusion is seen much more clearly.

[Gomi]

Hi there,

Glad to see your internet is working better now. Life with internet and without internet is a much different experience! :-)

Thanks for answering the questions. Some of the wording is confusing in the explanations. Can you please clarify some points? i think i know what you mean, but just want to make sure. You do not need to go into long detailed answers. Just fine tune.

Question 2

With an open mind

Is mind personal? Is there a controller of mind?

It doesn't matter how accurate this assumption is, so long as the experience can be neatly filed away into familiar and known territory. The logic mind has to explain everything in order to feel safe. Nothing is allowed to be left as a mystery.

Please clarify. Are you refering to your description of labeling and categorizing the content of thought...which you say isn't real? What files these experiences away? The logic mind? Is it real?

Question 3:

There is thought that 'I' must be protected that creates worry.

A thought appears. Is this the same type of assumption you were talking about in question 2? Assumptions that add labels onto thought that then follow up into worry?

Feelings are allowed to be, rather than resisted.There is more of a letting go of control,

Please explain. If there is no controller, what, if anything, is controlling/letting go of what?

Love,
Gomi