"Don't Know" This is for you.

[otterrivers]

if you've got nothing to say about this, that's ok. no response needed unless you feel there is. i'll check back tonight.

[Don't know]

Hi Otter,
Yes thanks for that, I looked again and there was still nothing outside presence. I liked the image of talking to someone who isn't in the room. When there's awareness of 'I' thoughts now I picture myself talking to an imaginary pumpkin and feel vaguely ridiculous.
I do have questions about how it will be when I awaken to self-less reality but figure that the best way to answer them is to find out for myself. It was good to have a day relaxing and deepening but thought content and feeling sensation have been critical and painful today. It's all so convincing and I guess old habits die hard. Hope you well and happy.
Yours
DK

[otterrivers]

1) Sit with one hand on each leg. think about the right hand moving. think "I will move the right hand". imagine it happening.
did the hand move?

now just move the right hand. what was the difference? watch closely.

was there any cause-effect relationship between the thought and the movement? or was there simply a thought, then either movement or not, then another thought "I did that. I moved the hand."? Do this a few times very slowly. report only exactly what is noticed.

[otterrivers]

2) after spending a few minutes on that last exercise, return both hands to resting on your legs.

Now think "I will decide to move my left or right hand".
Wait until you are calm and settled then move one of your hands (or both/neither. whatever).

Watch closely. did choosing really happen or was there possibly just a thought "I will move my ____ hand" and then this happened or not, followed almost immediately by another thought "I did that. I chose to do that." ...?

is there choice happening? is there a chooser/agent/decider? did you do/choose it? or did something just happen followed by a habitual thought "I chose/did that."

let's say the right hand moved. looking directly in the present, is there any possibility at all that the left could have moved that time? could it have been different? can you know that?

Do these exercises slowly a few times before responding.

3) (also watch this investigation. is there something there that is investigating, or is investigation simply happening?)

[Don't know]

1 Sit with hands on legs, think about moving hand then move it
Thought isn't necessary to movement, it's more like it's trying to guess what's gonna happen then take credit for it.

2 I will decide to move my left or right hand
The hands move when they want to, something just happens followed by habitual thought. In the present moment this action could not have been different.

3 also watch this investigation
Investigating is just happening like sight is happening, no separation between investigator, investigated and investigating.

BUT ... (apologies for thinking)
A. the earth didn't move for me this time (grasping) so the belief in ME stays tenacious
B. the imaginary pumpkin 'I' says that moving and investigating happened in response to your e mail so there is cause and effect and there must be some kind of agency to initiate and direct that action even if thoughts can't claim the credit?!

[otterrivers]

what is really grasping? to what? at what?

And it's ok if the earth doesn't move. can you know it should?
i'm just pointing you to look for yourself at what's true. simple.

1) ""the belief in ME stays tenacious""
is there really a belief in ME?

""the imaginary pumpkin 'I' says that... ""
Does an imaginary being really say anything?

--if we are going to label it cause and effect then what caused me to send you the email. then what caused that? and what caused that? is there any self anywhere which initiated the first movement? if so, what caused that?

But that's really philosophical.

2) Let's just look at the evidence you can see. you got an email from me. you did the exercises. thoughts arose of cause and effect...

do you see in your direct looking that there was really a cause-effect relationship between the email and the investigating and the thoughts?

Is there any possibility that it could have happened any differently?

[otterrivers]

3) look honestly. look straight at life. is there a decider?

""Investigating is just happening like sight is happening, no separation between investigator, investigated and investigating.""

what about decision? is it also just happening with no separation between decision, decider, and the choice that is made?
we can use the word "decisions". that's fine. but is there something that decides?

this is a piece of homework for you: do your best to watch decisions. go through your day. when you can, watch every little decision (or what we call decision) and try to see exactly what's happening. is there anything doing it?

[Don't know]

1. Is there really a belief in ME?
No, Sensation happening

Does an imaginary being really say anything?
No, Thoughts happening

If we are going to label it cause and effect then what caused what and is there any self anywhere which initiated the first movement?
No, Happening is happening.

2. Do you see in your direct looking that there was really a cause-effect relationship between the email and the investigating and the thoughts?
No, Reading happening, investigating happening, thoughts happening.

Is there any possibility that it could have happened differently?
No

Look honestly straight at life is there a decider?
No, decisions happening, thoughts follow.

Please indulge a little thinking...
The cause and effect thing makes sense if I don't separate out the variables in time and space. If I stay with presence there's just (whatever activity) happening and it couldn't be any other way. It's this habit of separating inner/ outer, cause/ effect, that feels key. Separating and attributing to ME is like not being fully alive, like I've not really been present to my life. More like 'I thinking' stops presence or something.

Stopping 'I thinking' feels like giving up smoking (did you ever smoke?) it's a bad habit, deeply engrained, causes suffering, it's not rational but as a smoker I could not imagine how I would live without it, initially every thought turned to smoking but 15 years later I hardly think about it and when I do it has no power. Starting to kick the 'I' habit.

[Don't know]

Experience is happening, only thoughts labelling self/ other, time/ space, there is no other possibility but this moment, only the thought that it could be other than this causes suffering. OK so the Truth does piss me off and hasn't yet set me free!
Sorry if that sounds ungrateful, appreciate your guidance and deep down sure some part of me recognises liberation.

[otterrivers]

Haha. it doesn't sound ungrateful at all! i'm glad you're throwing everything you've got at this. you want truth. not agreement. the liberation is not the ceasing of the habit. there's the hint.

0) ""the Truth does piss me off and hasn't yet set me free!""
--I didn't promise any of your expectations would be realized or that they were even realistic.
Consider: what is it that is going to be liberated? liberated from what? into what?
Is there really such separation: 'liberation, liberated, liberated from'?....
(no need to give me an answer to this one, just consider)

1) what is the liberation? liberation from what? a habit you don't like?

2) does "I thinking" stop presence? really?

3) how did you quit smoking? what is the difference with the "self-ing" habit? (i'm not saying there is or isn't a difference. you tell me.)

These are a couple hints. reason it out for yourself if you can. if not, i'll point some more. I feel it's important for you to see this for yourself rather than having me tell you.

I will try to respond again before I go but otherwise i'm leaving tomorrow afternoon(Friday) and I may not have internet access again until sunday night.

[Don't know]

What is the liberation?
Does I thinking stop presence?
What is the difference/ is there a difference between quitting smoking and quitting selfing?
The liberation is not the ceasing of the habit

Sorry complete blank, plus overwhelmingly painful thoughts and feelings.
Will need an extension on this homework, have a good trip, speak Sunday.

[otterrivers]

yes. please relax. take it easy. don't strain. there's NO REASON to push. just relax and look. go easy on yourself. (!)

just look and work on these questions to the best of your ability without giving yourself a headache. ...or an aneurysm haha.

I'm leaving in a few minutes. looking forward to your reply when I return sunday.

[Don't know]

What is the liberation?
There is only sensation, thought and presence so I suppose the liberation is seeing that there is only sensation, thought and presence!
Does I thinking stop presence?
No because all thought happens within presence but it feels circular and like trying to fly by pulling on your shoelaces.
What is the difference/ is there a difference between quitting smoking and the selfing habit?
Quitting smoking happened and 'I' took the credit for it, selfing thoughts continue but i imagine they are seen through as thoughts that point to other thoughts.

'Don't know' doesn't really know just guessing...

[otterrivers]

sorry I came down with quite a bad cold while on my trip. just got online for the first time since Friday and have a lot of catching up to do. i'll respond more fully when I feel I can give it my full attention. tomorrow at the latest. thanks. sorry for the delay.

[Don't know]

Thanks for message, no worriesjust take care, i'm still looking,