Ready to let go. Requesting a guide.

[Tao]

Hi vince

Morning Benny.
Yes, you are displaying insight.
How does it feel ?
How does it feel to SEE that there isn't an actual, separate I running the show ?
How does it feel to Know that what is Real for Benny, is confined to Experiencing,

To be honest, on the one hand, it doesn't feel any different. There is still heavy identification, it still very much feels like there is a 'me' living in the world.

On the other hand, there is a SEEing that it is just thoughts and feelings arising. When things are more negative, there is still great discomfort felt, but there is seeing that it is as things are and a knowing that it will change.

Today there was lots of heavy thoughts and feelings arising, and a feeling of instability, a feeling of falling apart. Nothing new at all, but there was more knowing it as story. There was negative feelings in relation to viewing things a certain way, i.e, stories happening and causing painful feelings to arise. But it was known they were stories causing the pain, even if they were still largely identified with.

It looked as if it was all related to one primordial state; fear. That when there is a state of fear, there are story thoughts and feelings in relation to that state. That the flavour of thoughts matches up to the level of fear in experience.

Whilst looking at thoughts and feelings, it is seen to be protecting an identity. Perhaps reputation, or some idea of who 'I' am and how 'I' look in relation to others. These negative states seem to be trying to defend or uphold this idea.

There still feels like there is a way to live, a way to act in the world and lessons to be learned when mistakes are made.

Do you have expectations for how this (liberation) will be in the future ?

There are definitely expectations. It appears that negative stories escalate a lot less the less they are identified with. Also the less they are identified with, the less they are reacted from. Reacting from negative states leads to more problems. There is an expectation that ‘Benny’ can improve ethically, that the story can get lighter, more loving.
I suppose there is hope too, that consciousness can transcend the obsession with the mundane. That identification with story mode will diminish. That there will be more of a ongoing liberation from ‘Benny’s story’, that is ultimately very painful and dissatisfactory. Or perhaps, that the discomfort won’t be so uncomfortable.

Benny



love

vince

[Tao]

Sorry, didn't get all the quote functions right with that one :D

[vinceschubert]

Sorry, didn't get all the quote functions right with that one

No worries. They were good answers.

There is still heavy identification

Excuse the pun, but how do you identify the identification ? What is your experiencing of this ?

it still very much feels like there is a 'me' living in the world.

You saw in that video, how the SENSE of self was able to be manipulated to be outside of and behind the person. This makes it clear that the IDEA of a self arises from sensory cues. Cues that are habit.
Of course it will persist while ever those cues continue. Aside from knowing that they don't point to an actual, separate self, is there any reason to change them ? Does this result in suffering ?

When things are more negative, there is still great discomfort felt, but there is seeing that it is as things are

This is excellent. The welcome acceptance, the total surrender to the knowing that what IS, cannot be controlled or changed, as it already exists only as a memory, allows an underlying peace to permeate all the shittyness that flows as Life-ing does.

and a knowing that it will change.

Careful here. Yes, experiencing here seems to confirm that impermanence is actual and will continue to be so, but this is story. When you tell yourself story, even if it's a good one, it is a stepping away from the Real.
Can you SEE that the Real consists of only current Experiencing ?

There was negative feelings in relation to viewing things a certain way, i.e, stories happening and causing painful feelings to arise. But it was known they were stories causing the pain,

Can you SEE that the negative feelings were the result of thought stories ? ("this shouldn't be happening. etc")

It looked as if it was all related to one primordial state; fear.

This is WonderFull SEEing. It was the result of noticing direct experiencing, and not a mental deduction, right ?

There still feels like there is a way to live, a way to act in the world and lessons to be learned when mistakes are made.

It's funny that we say "feels like" when we mean, "mentally deduce..".
Some stories turn out to be true (or true-er) than others. They are still stories. This story sounds very credible, but, inherent in it are a couple of things worth investigating.
Control. Does that organism with the label Benny, actually have control ? Is there a self that makes decisions or do choices just happen at the level of the organism ? (remember the video again. The 6 seconds before mind claimed ownership of the choice made)
Mistakes. Can this be more than a mental concept ? Is there such a thing as a mistake ? If asked to show a mistake, all we could point to is a label (with overtones) that depicts another story. Can you come up with more than that ?
Does 'wrong' exist independently in the world ?

love

vince

[Tao]

Hi Vince :)

Excuse the pun, but how do you identify the identification ? What is your experiencing of this ?

Good question. There is a believing the stories to be real, as things are, and relevant. They are not always seen as stories, they are seen to be important, serious, and therefore reaction from the stories happens, rather than a simple acceptance of them just being stories.

You saw in that video, how the SENSE of self was able to be manipulated to be outside of and behind the person. This makes it clear that the IDEA of a self arises from sensory cues. Cues that are habit.
Of course it will persist while ever those cues continue. Aside from knowing that they don't point to an actual, separate self, is there any reason to change them ? Does this result in suffering ?

Again, the belief in the thoughts that there is a 'me' continues, and it is this that causes suffering. There is often a heaviness to the story, a great weight, it makes things seem very serious. The heaviness is still just sensations and thoughts arising, but when they are believed to be personal, important, and relevant, then suffering results. When there is belief/identification, there is resistance to what 'is'. There are thoughts that something needs to be 'done', that there is a doer that can turn things around. The doer is then taken to be real and pressure to 'do' occurs. This creates resistance which in turn causes suffering.

When things are more negative, there is still great discomfort felt, but there is seeing that it is as things are

This is excellent. The welcome acceptance, the total surrender to the knowing that what IS, cannot be controlled or changed, as it already exists only as a memory, allows an underlying peace to permeate all the shittyness that flows as Life-ing does.

This is happening more and more. Pure acceptance. It is seen to be just thoughts and feelings arising and known to just be a conceptual perspective of how things are, just concepts. There is no real problem with arising thoughts and negative feelings, until thoughts say there is a problem, and the thought is taken to be relevant.

and a knowing that it will change.

Careful here. Yes, experiencing here seems to confirm that impermanence is actual and will continue to be so, but this is story. When you tell yourself story, even if it's a good one, it is a stepping away from the Real.
Can you SEE that the Real consists of only current Experiencing ?

Yes definitely. 'It will pass' is just another thought. The thoughts it seems to replace are, 'I'm depressed, what do I do about this depression?' and so on. And therefore there is less reacting out of those states which stops the drama from escalating. So it is a more helpful thought, but again just a thought that is arising.

There was negative feelings in relation to viewing things a certain way, i.e, stories happening and causing painful feelings to arise. But it was known they were stories causing the pain,

Can you SEE that the negative feelings were the result of thought stories ? ("this shouldn't be happening. etc")

Yes definitely. Thoughts arise, and the thoughts give rise to feelings in response. The negative feelings then reaffirm the thoughts and an escalation happens.

It looked as if it was all related to one primordial state; fear.

This is WonderFull SEEing. It was the result of noticing direct experiencing, and not a mental deduction, right ?

Yes it was SEEN for the first time. The others like depression, anxiety etc are labels based on thought content but these are just thoughts and feelings arising flavored by the level of fear in experience.

There still feels like there is a way to live, a way to act in the world and lessons to be learned when mistakes are made.

It's funny that we say "feels like" when we mean, "mentally deduce..".
Some stories turn out to be true (or true-er) than others. They are still stories. This story sounds very credible, but, inherent in it are a couple of things worth investigating.

Control. Does that organism with the label Benny, actually have control ? Is there a self that makes decisions or do choices just happen at the level of the organism ? (remember the video again. The 6 seconds before mind claimed ownership of the choice made)

No, it is seen more and more that there is no control. Thoughts paint a picture to make it look like there was a choice when there was none. Volitions, impulses, habitual patterns all arise, underneath thoughts, underneath conscious awareness, and the organism responds. Thoughts then assume 'I' did this, 'I' did that.

Thoughts themselves however, can control the organism. thoughts can say, lift left arm, and it lifts. Still, there is no 'I' that controls such thoughts.

Mistakes. Can this be more than a mental concept ? Is there such a thing as a mistake ? If asked to show a mistake, all we could point to is a label (with overtones) that depicts another story. Can you come up with more than that ?
Does 'wrong' exist independently in the world ?

Again, this is seen more and more. Nothing could have been different as things just are. Right and wrong are judgments, mentally deduced labels. A mistake suggests things could/should have been different when in fact they just were as they were.

There does however seem to be harmony and dissonance, birth and death, love and power, love and fear. To make anything right or wrong though is mental judgement.

Benny

[vinceschubert]

a believing the stories to be real

What do we find when we examine "believing" ?
We find more thoughts. A particular kind of thought. One that says that other thoughts are true. One that says that other (critical/analyzing) thoughts need not bother to get active. One that says "allow this to happen automatically". Does this resonate for Benny ?
Are beliefs seen to be thought stories ?
Are ALL beliefs and opinions thoughts ?

rather than a simple acceptance of them just being stories.

What is the first prerequisite, the first dependent condition, for this acceptance to occur ?

the belief in the thoughts that there is a 'me' continues

Oh, then where is this "me" ?
Is it actual belief in a "me" ? or a deduction that this must be the case because of certain behavior ?

until thoughts say there is a problem, and the thought is taken to be relevant.

Is not the taking to be relevant, just more thoughts about previous thoughts ?
If ALL thougts are conceptual and only ever about something, how then did it get to a point where we took the content of thought to be real ? (i know that you can only answer this with a story, but have a go anyway)

Thoughts themselves however, can control the organism. thoughts can say, lift left arm, and it lifts. Still, there is no 'I' that controls such thoughts.

Your left arm lifts hundreds of times every day without thought. Examine this. When you think "lift left arm", is the impulse to lift it already there and what the thought does is describe the impulse and then claim ownership (doership) ?
Give me a rough estimate of how often (%) you Recognize that you have been 'acting out' thought content;
1/ after the story has run its' course.
2/ during the 'acting out'..
3/ before the getting sucked in happens.
4/ no realization happened.

love

vince

[Tao]

What do we find when we examine "believing" ?
We find more thoughts. A particular kind of thought. One that says that other thoughts are true. One that says that other (critical/analyzing) thoughts need not bother to get active. One that says "allow this to happen automatically". Does this resonate for Benny ?

Wow. Looking today, it definitely resonated in regard to an allowance occuring. Yeah, when thoughts come in, and they are taken to be relevant, there is almost an intention to ALLOW them to be true, so they can be believed. It's like, there is some allowance. For example, thoughts arising about posting on here, how to answer the questions etc, constantly arising. They are still logical, but it feels necessary to allow these thoughts to be believed! None the less even these thoughts take one away from SEEing. These thoughts are still allowed to be true.

Whether this intention to allow thoughts is yet more thoughts is yet to be seen. Still looking.

Thoughts constantly create the story that, 'I' need to 'do' something, in order to achieve a more satisfying state in the future, to acheive a better outcome. Thoughts conceptualize so many different ways to attain a better future and all these different ways it imagines, including how to grow spiritually, how to find the perfect relationship and so on, constantly seeking a brighter moment in the future. Thoughts keep turning one's attention away from NOW. Thoughts create dissatisfaction with the way the present moment is, that it is not good enough. Thoughts of past moments of bliss etc as the support for this.

This is what the story is. There is this 'I' that needs to attain a better state in future and so creates dissatisfaction with how things are. This is the cause of suffering. Things must go well, as conceptualized. If they do not, discontent, dissatisfaction, boredom, the need to do something to change something is there. Now is not acceptable as it is.

Even in our interaction here, "'I' need to see this" 'In order to be liberated' is a thought that arises that is often believed, even this causes distaste of what is NOW. This is what thought stories constantly do, create problems to be solved. And there is believing a lot of these thoughts still.

What is it to believe these thoughts? Still looking.

It appears to take concentration, effort, focus, to LOOK. Whereas it takes nothing to allow one's attention to get lost in thought.

Are beliefs seen to be thought stories ?
Are ALL beliefs and opinions thoughts ?

Wow, they must be. Need to look more at this.

rather than a simple acceptance of them just being stories.

What is the first prerequisite, the first dependent condition, for this acceptance to occur ?

The dependent condition for acceptance of them being stories, is for them to be SEEN, and recognized as thoughts.

the belief in the thoughts that there is a 'me' continues

Oh, then where is this "me" ?
Is it actual belief in a "me" ? or a deduction that this must be the case because of certain behavior ?

More thoughts, but the thoughts are often believed, thus creating this ongoing belief in 'me'. Until LOOKing happens, and the self cannot be found.

until thoughts say there is a problem, and the thought is taken to be relevant.

Is not the taking to be relevant, just more thoughts about previous thoughts ?

Need to look more at this.

Give me a rough estimate of how often (%) you Recognize that you have been 'acting out' thought content;

This is tough.

Whilst 'LOOKING'
1/ after the story has run its' course. 20&
2/ during the 'acting out'.. 30%
3/ before the getting sucked in happens. 30%
4/ no realization happened. 20%

During the course of a day:
1/ after the story has run its' course. 20%
2/ during the 'acting out'.. 10%
3/ before the getting sucked in happens. 10%
4/ no realization happened. 60%

Benny

[vinceschubert]

Whether this intention to allow thoughts is yet more thoughts is yet to be seen. Still looking.

What was SEEn ?

Thoughts constantly create the story that...

Yes, mind is a fantastic storyline creator. It's what it does best. It seems so natural.
Stories are not the bad guy here. Many stories are useful. It is simply the Recognition that we have been mistaking a story for what it is not (Reality), that we are tasked with here.
Is effort or intention anywhere to be seen when we recognize a familiar face ?

the story that, 'I' need to 'do' something

The implication here is that you already recognize that the idea of a personal do-er is fiction. Is this true ? Do you SEE this ?
Can a see-er see anything without the seen ?
Can a seen be seen without the see-er ?
Is it possible to separate the see-er and the seen ?
Would you say that when seeing is happening, that the see-er and the seen are purely conceptual (story) ?
Seeing = Experiencing = (complete) Reality ?

It appears to take concentration, effort, focus, to LOOK. Whereas it takes nothing to allow one's attention to get lost in thought.

Ah, the power of habit... The chuckle exercise accelerated the brain re-wiring. Even if you are doing the tapping instead of the laughing, do make sure that you do a little contraction of the stomach, as if chuckling. This releases hormones that reward the organism.

until thoughts say there is a problem, and the thought is taken to be relevant.
Is not the taking to be relevant, just more thoughts about previous thoughts ?
Need to look more at this.

..and what was SEEn ?

1/ after the story has run its' course. 20%

Does this include stuff realized even the next day ?

2/ during the 'acting out'.. 10%

This is significant. Do you find that the storyline drops with the SEEing that it is happening ?

3/ before the getting sucked in happens. 10%

Do you notice the reluctance to drop it, without it running its' course ?

4/ no realization happened. 60%

Obviously you worked this out (thought the result). How much of your day occurs without any thought ?

vince

[Tao]

Hi Vince

Yes, mind is a fantastic storyline creator. It's what it does best. It seems so natural.
Stories are not the bad guy here. Many stories are useful. It is simply the Recognition that we have been mistaking a story for what it is not (Reality), that we are tasked with here.

Definitely!

Is effort or intention anywhere to be seen when we recognize a familiar face ?

No none, the recognition happens automatically.

The implication here is that you already recognize that the idea of a personal do-er is fiction. Is this true ? Do you SEE this ?

I see that the illusion of do-er is created from thoughts yes. Or more that the do-er is only within the content of thoughts.

Can a see-er see anything without the seen ?
Can a seen be seen without the see-er ?
Is it possible to separate the see-er and the seen ?

A bit lost here. The see-er is the same as the do-er, the see-er is created by thoughts. When one looks at a tree for example, there is the tree and there are image thoughts accompanying it. The thoughts imagine a face looking, that face being 'me' looking at the tree. In recognition of this, the tree is seen and the image thoughts are seen and there is just the SEEN. Without SEEing these image thoughts, it is believed the tree is being looked at through my eyes.

Would you say that when seeing is happening, that the see-er and the seen are purely conceptual (story) ?

Yes exactly! But only when seeing is happening. Otherwise the story is taken to be reality.

Seeing = Experiencing = (complete) Reality ?

Yes. Separation is created by thoughts. There is only experience.

Ah, the power of habit... The chuckle exercise accelerated the brain re-wiring. Even if you are doing the tapping instead of the laughing, do make sure that you do a little contraction of the stomach, as if chuckling. This releases hormones that reward the organism.

I have been doing the chuckles, although the practice has slipped a bit recently. The last few days getting lost in stories has been strong.

until thoughts say there is a problem, and the thought is taken to be relevant.
Is not the taking to be relevant, just more thoughts about previous thoughts ?
Need to look more at this.

..and what was SEEn ?

That some kind of allowance is happening. Like it's ok to be believing these thoughts. And then there may be a recognition afterwards that they were believed.

There is a thought that tries to maintain concentration, to LOOK. Here looking happens.

1/ after the story has run its' course. 20%

Does this include stuff realized even the next day ?

Probably not actually no. In the evening, or the next day it is often recognized that one was lost in stories.

2/ during the 'acting out'.. 10%

This is significant. Do you find that the storyline drops with the SEEing that it is happening ?

Yes. Although another thought may arise straight after the seeing that 'I' have been lost in thought.

3/ before the getting sucked in happens. 10%

Do you notice the reluctance to drop it, without it running its' course ?

Thoughts seem to have quite a pull, and they can creep in from all angles, evading awareness and pulling one into illusion - at least this is the best way to explain it. If the thought is SEEN as it arises, there is usually no will to investigate it, even though it still feels like it is pulling one in, and that it takes effort to maintain awareness

4/ no realization happened. 60%

Obviously you worked this out (thought the result). How much of your day occurs without any thought ?

Without any thought at all? None. Thought is always there, it keeps coming and coming ;) . There are tiny gaps of receptivity in between.

Benny

[Tao]

Hi Vince,

Hope everything is ok. Haven't heard from you in a couple of days. If you want me to wait until Gomi is back, that is fine. :)

Benny

[vinceschubert]

Sorry Benny, i've been on the road. i am home again now, so let's go...

No none, the recognition happens automatically.

Are you having Recognitions about the nature of Self and what is Real ?

Otherwise the story is taken to be reality.

i put it to you that no reality check was carried out. That somehow permission had been given to enact a script uncritically. Without question. Without awareness ? Does this resonate ?

There is only experience.

Can you groc that experience, an experience, a thing, can only exist as memory. Thoughts. The only reality of an experience, is a conceptual one. Thought stories.
NOW, Experiencing... That's a different thing. Now we have a verb.
Experiencing can only be NOW.
It is the flow of current Life-ing.
Direct Experiencing by all of the senses - before thought hi-jacks the flow.
It is not ABOUT anything. It is the ACTUAL, Current, ExperiencING.
THIS Is IT !
It can't be changed. By the time awareness catches up with it, it is already finished. Past. Memory. An Experience.
Total, Welcome, Acceptance of THIS. No judgements. No opinions. Just Wonder at what might appear next.
From this perpespective, what can you do to get liberated ?

love

vince

[Tao]

Sorry Benny, i've been on the road. i am home again now, so let's go...

Great!

Are you having Recognitions about the nature of Self and what is Real ?

Glimpses perhaps.

Otherwise the story is taken to be reality.

i put it to you that no reality check was carried out. That somehow permission had been given to enact a script uncritically. Without question. Without awareness ? Does this resonate ?

Yes it does. The permission that is given to enact the script, is this 'allowance' I was talking about. No reality check is carried out. No question or awareness, thoughts are simply enacted as if they are reality.

There is only experience.

Can you groc that experience, an experience, a thing, can only exist as memory. Thoughts. The only reality of an experience, is a conceptual one.

Yes. 'An' experience is subject to time, as if it exists as a fixed thing, in past or future. This can only exist as a thought. Memory or fantasy.

NOW, Experiencing... That's a different thing. Now we have a verb.
Experiencing can only be NOW.
It is the flow of current Life-ing.
Direct Experiencing by all of the senses - before thought hi-jacks the flow.
It is not ABOUT anything. It is the ACTUAL, Current, ExperiencING.
THIS Is IT !

Yes, definitely, I can see this.

Thoughts are part of experiencing though, it is the enacting of thoughts that hijack the flow. If thoughts are allowed to come and go, without identification, then still just ExperiencING

It can't be changed. By the time awareness catches up with it, it is already finished. Past. Memory. An Experience.
Total, Welcome, Acceptance of THIS. No judgements. No opinions. Just Wonder at what might appear next.
From this perpespective, what can you do to get liberated ?

Haha, yes of course. I hadn't seen it like that. By the time awareness catches up with it, it can only be thinking. That's amazing.

Letting go of taking refuge in thought, to stop turning to thought for an answer. Could that be liberation?

Benny

[vinceschubert]

first, let me say this; "(apparent) paradox exist in the 'Real' world.

Yes, definitely, I can see this.
Thoughts are part of experiencing..

Is experiencing possible without thought ? (answer from Direct Experiencing please)

Haha, yes of course. I hadn't seen it like that. By the time awareness catches up with it, it can only be thinking. That's amazing.

Can there be "awareness" without the description of it (thoughts about it) ?

Letting go of taking refuge in thought, to stop turning to thought for an answer.

Oh, and who is going to DO that ?

love

vince

[Tao]

Hi Vince

Is experiencing possible without thought ? (answer from Direct Experiencing please)

Yes, for short periods at least.

Can there be "awareness" without the description of it (thoughts about it) ?

Yes, but not for very long. It isn't long before an body reference image comes to mind, usually of a body, and eyes looking, and a thought that says, 'THAT is what is looking'.

Letting go of taking refuge in thought, to stop turning to thought for an answer.

Oh, and who is going to DO that ?

Consciousness is intoxicated by thought. Perhaps it could be that this intoxication wears off :)

Benny

[vinceschubert]

Awareness of Experiencing can have thoughts that are purely descriptive.
Then there are thoughts that are ABOUT stuff. They carry judgement, opinion, beliefs. They attempt to apply meaning. To explain. They create story.
Can you distinguish between these types of thoughts ?
Which did you use when you said; "Consciousness is intoxicated by thought" ?

Letting go of taking refuge in thought, to stop turning to thought for an answer.

Is this a story ?

vince

[Tao]

Awareness of Experiencing can have thoughts that are purely descriptive.

Descriptive of what? Direct experience, or assumption of what experience is? In my experience, all thoughts lead away from direct experience. What can be described? Is any thought not just an assumption?

Then there are thoughts that are ABOUT stuff. They carry judgement, opinion, beliefs. They attempt to apply meaning. To explain. They create story.

All thoughts attempt to explain. All thoughts are assumptions of the NOW and not the NOW. Thoughts are part of the NOW but the content is always an assumption.

Can you distinguish between these types of thoughts ?

I need to see what a descriptive thought is.

I can see that there are story thoughts, and I can see that there are thoughts that make assumptions about the NOW. For example, a bird is heard, it is a thought that labels it as a bird, and pictures what the bird looks like, and where it is in relation to where 'I' (the body) am. This still helps to add up to the equation that there is an 'I' and an outside world. But it is an assumption, so how can it be descriptive?

Sight is often accompanied by an image of the body viewing through the eyes, is this a descriptive thought, or another body reference, assumption thought?

Which did you use when you said; "Consciousness is intoxicated by thought" ?

It is how it appears, so a concept was applied to express that appearance.

Letting go of taking refuge in thought, to stop turning to thought for an answer.

Is this a story ?

Yes, it is perhaps a hope or expectation.

Benny