Looking for a guide

[Jan55]

There is no see-er only seen. This was so hard for me to REALLY get. No trees out there that are in direct experience….only seeing trees here. That’s all. There is no here and there, just walking forward there is here, here, here and “there” becomes another here. So if there is only here, no “there”, then objects in direct experience are only ever experienced here! Never over there. Not possible to experience over there….I would have to be there! Over there is a label. Distance between me and objects is presumed by the brain. If you are watching a tv the images are flat on the screen, there is no space inside the tv, but the brain sees distance, not the flat screen. The brain converts smaller images into “distance”, the same way as soft sounds are converted into faraway sounds by thoughts about the sounds.
Yay!! I finally got that. Another piece of the puzzle!

Yesterday I felt so dumb thinkig about what I wrote about the apple, and just thought I was rambling on as usual, and being deluded again. But then I read another thread last night when a guide was explaining the exact same thing!! And I read a piece where Ilona quoted Buddhist sutra that was pointing to the same thing for someone, so I felt so much relief to have it confirmed. Some of these things seem so strange, if I was to say to my friends who don’t know about this stuff – there is no such thing as an apple they would think I was mad! Doubt in myself is a big story going on here. (I just saw how funny that last sentence is!)

[Pallavi]

I'm smiling at your discoveries :)

Great job!

(sorry i've been out of the loop, been a bit sick, in and out of the hospital)

Are you ready for the final questions?

[Jan55]

Sorry to hear you’re not well. Your generosity in continuing to guide when you been in hospital is amazing. Thank you so much. I hope you are taking as good a care of yourself. I’m very happy to keep looking here until you are well enough to post, so don’t hurry.

I just have one question before you send the questions. I may understand it already, but I would love to hear what you say.

I had an experience right back when I started doing the direct experience searching for an I, where all understanding of an I just disappeared. It was amazing that such a thing could ever be believed, and it was so obvious and so simple. That clarity lasted about half a day and gradually went back to normal, and I have had a tiny flash of it since.

So, where I feel I am since then is I have clearly seen thoughts arise and claim the experience as an I, and I have seen that there is no controller, and life flows better since, but this feels like educating my mind. I “know” it but then forget it and I need to check in to experience and re-establish it. But the empty feeling around the “I” isn’t there anymore.

So my question is – do I need to keep looking until it is as clear as it was that day before I answer the questions?

When I was thinking about all this, the sky changed from clear to overcast and back to blue again, and I thought I wonder if that’s my answer. Experience is constantly changing.

But I would like to hear what you think about it.

[Pallavi]

We all fall in believing in our thoughts again. The self was not created in one day, so it will not fall in one day.

Like you said, as you get into the illusion and start believing, the untruth strikes you- you haven't really forgotten, you've just gotten lost and you find your way back again :)

It will take a while for all the dirt from the self to clear out. Just breathe and give it love, give it compassion. Your mind has been working very hard. Over time it will clear out :)

[Jan55]

Wonderful, thank you...let's see what's there with the questions then!

[Pallavi]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it
works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this
dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything
happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) Anything to add?

Take you time answering these <3
Much love

[Jan55]

Thanks so much,

I'll probably post tomorrow - just clarifying for myself.

[Jan55]

1)There never was a me/self/I except in language. All there is is body, sensations, feeling and thought. There isn’t a me/self or I feeling these, and there never was – “I” is a thought that claims ownership of what’s just happening.

2) The illusion of a separate self is the idea of an individual who is in control of this existence, body, life, emotions, thoughts, choices. It’s just an assumption that each person has a controller operating and in charge. Decisions are made, dinners are cooked, work is done and it is all attributed to this “I”. In reality it’s so obvious: scientists even tell us – glands secrete hormones/chemicals etc. and there is a happy/sad feeling. The “me” who is separate from the body and is the feeler of happy/sad can’t be found, by scientists, or anyone else! I’m presuming it starts when language is learned and children learn to say I and me, and create a separation from what is happening. As soon as there is an I it creates a distance, separation; creates an owner – “I” is an attempt to control life, create a feeling of safety, reduce life from an immense mystery into the known and manageable.

3) It changes from minute to minute. It feels like there are layers or depths to understanding this and it’s sort of sinking in. I get an glimpse of the immensity and force of life, and noticing how in the midst of that, the phone rings and a perfectly normal conversation takes place with no one here. At the moment it feels really hard to put all this down into words. When I read what I wrote it doesn’t convey what I mean, and feels a bit stilted, but it’s the best I can do right now. The difference before I started this dialogue is that I no longer believe in a self, me, or an I.

4) It’s been a process, gradual dawning, and it feels like it’s still happening. It doesn’t feel like being pushed over, but there has been a drive here to find out and experience for myself what others are talking about. The real push probably is when that decision happens to stop playing at it or thinking at it and really do it. Thinking doesn’t experience, experiencing is the only way to experience.

5)”I” don’t decide, there is a process of information gathering, and then action happens – based on previous experience, preferences of this body etc. If there’s a car coming my way, the process is a lot quicker than if a decision is needed on what to have for lunch. Choosing feels the same.

Life is just happening, there is no knowledge of what will happen next and no control. Thoughts can’t control, and body can’t control. There is nothing here running my life or my body so what can control? In order to control something you would have to be able to manipulate things in some way – you would have to have control of the future. “Now” is not possible to control, it’s gone before that’s possible. I find that absolutely wonderful!!

[Pallavi]

Can a thought claim ownership over anything?

[Jan55]

Well, a thought can claim it...it can say it, but it can't actually DO it. A thought can't own anything.

[Pallavi]

Can a thought 'say it'?

[Jan55]

A thought can't actually say anything. There is awareness of thoughts chattering, appearing, commenting.

[Pallavi]

:) Alright. I'm going to check with the other guides if they have questions for you.

[Pallavi]

They don't have any questions :)

Is there anything you would like to add? Would you like to meet the others on the LU facebook groups?