Can see there is no separate I, BUT...

[dparansky]

Dear Canfora,

I see that actions in the body don't come because thoughts arise. For example, tonight I was rocking my son to sleep, and when he was asleep, there was a dialog in my head about whether or not I should get up, put him in his crib, and go do something else. Eventually, the body just got up and did it; it had nothing to do with the dialog. Sometimes, though, I notice that the body moves because a specific thought seems to trigger the action (an emotionally charged thought, maybe). But still, this series of motions (thought and body) happen spontaneously. This is easy to see.

It is very obvious (and has been for a while) that I don't control my thoughts. I see these words appearing right now, just as I see your words. It is pretty clear that everything just happens and that there's no executive making things happen. Same thing with actions. It's clear that the hand moves because it does, not because there's someone here making it happen.

Sometimes I can see that nothing could be or could have been any different from how it is/was. But sometimes this isn't as obvious as others.

I think that mind keeps saying, "Yes but, yes but..." and related emotions come because there is something (thought-made self) that is trying to hold on; it doesn't want to end.

Thank you. Love,

David

[Canfora]

Dear David,

Thank you for sharing your experience. Great :)

Sometimes I can see that nothing could be or could have been any different from how it is/was. But sometimes this isn't as obvious as others.

In the words of other guide "it is just a Gate not a finish line". Looking will go on; "doubting" thoughts will go on - all happening without control and without a doer. Life is rearranging itself in the form of a separate entity... and we all have different hardware and software. That means very different experiences.

I think that mind keeps saying, "Yes but, yes but..." and related emotions come because there is something (thought-made self) that is trying to hold on; it doesn't want to end.

Thoughts and emotions about a thought-made self are happening. Can you find this self that thinks this thoughts and feels this emotions? The thoughts and emotions are real but is the self real? Can this self end? Is it possible that all this thoughts and emotions are just appearing without the existance of a you doing them?

Look also to your beliefs about the body:

Also, there is identification with the body. I see that it moves by itself, that it is typing the words right now out of nowhere. But there is also still a feeling of identification with this form.

Does the body experience sensations and thought? Or is the "body" just another thought label for sensations?

Share what you find.

Love, Canfora

[dparansky]

Dear Canfora,

I can see that body (and mind) is just another thought label for sensations (and thoughts). The body doesn't experience sensations just like thoughts don't think.

The appearances are there and there is no evidence of a self in relationship to them, but there is this presence-awareness, and there is a fear that it is going to end when the body-mind dies. It is not the presence-awareness itself that is afraid of the end. I can see that. So it must be some layer of self that is still not seen as just an appearance. So we're back to the fear of death thing. :)

Love,

David

[Canfora]

Dear David,

It is not the presence-awareness itself that is afraid of the end. I can see that. So it must be some layer of self that is still not seen as just an appearance. So we're back to the fear of death thing.

Wonderful, you can look to the fear of death again!

Can you find “fear” in your direct experience or “death”? Or can you only find sensations arising and a thought story?

Is "fear" personal? Is "death" personal? What makes them yours?

There are layers of self? How does that work? Can you find a yourself that doesn't see itself as just an appearance and a yourself that knows it's not real? Is this last self trying to convince the first one that they do not exist? :)

I suggest the following exercises. They will take awareness away of "yourself" for awhile.

Look at your dogs. Do they have a self? Do they need a self? Are they separated from life?

Look also to your son. When he was born did an I also born at the same time? Can you see an I in him? Or an “son”? If he already has an I how did the I appeared?

Don’t forget your wife. Does she also have an self or is she life living itself, in a human form? Could she be any different than she is? How? Is she separated from you in direct experience? What is she in your perception?

Share what you find when looking to "fear", "death", "dogs", "son", "wife" and "self" .

Love, Canfora

[dparansky]

Dear Canfora,

Fear is a label for thoughts, emotions and sensations. There is nothing personal. Death seems like it's "mine" because it seems that this light will go out when the body dies.

That's a great koan about the apparent self that doesn't see itself as just an appearance, the self that knows it's not real, and the second one trying to convince the first that they don't exist. There is a big feeling of getting stuck in the words, in an internal dialogue, rather than a letting go into no self. Crash me, please!!!!!! :)

I don't know if there is any false sense of self in my dogs. They seem almost like nonverbal people (They're really smart and manipulative...They know how to get what they want). I don't think they have language, and language maybe is needed for a self to develop: I/me/my. I just don't know. If they have any kind of self-image, I am pretty sure, though, that it's not nearly as solid as human self-images, with all the stories we tell. Can we be sure that animals don't have self-concepts? Dolphins, for example?

As for my son, it seems like it's starting to develop. He's developing preferences and language, though he doesn't say I/me/my yet. This brings me back to wondering if these words are needed for a false sense of self to arise.

You asked if my wife has a self. She thinks she does. :) Of course, there's a self-concept there, and I usually see her as a self! But I can also see that she's just life living itself in human form. Could she be any different from how she is? No. Nothing could. This is clear right now. Is she separated from me in direct experience? That's an interesting one, because all of her thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. are separated from me; I don't experience them. I only experience "my own" thoughts about her.

Am I missing something? I think so. Love,

David

[Canfora]

Dear David,

Thank you for your nice answers :)

Is she separated from me in direct experience? That's an interesting one, because all of her thoughts, feelings, sensations, etc. are separated from me; I don't experience them. I only experience "my own" thoughts about her.

When does separation happen? If experience is not labeled is experience "dualistic"? If you stay with what's here right now and your "wife" enters in the room is she really separated from "you"? Can you find an outside and an inside?

Our "mission" here is to make you see through the illusion of self. How is this going?

Could it be that all this is seen by no one?
Can everything work without an I, a story?
Is a David needed for life to happen to "you"?

Love, Canfora

[Canfora]

David, what can be found that needs to be crashed? :)

How would this crashing look like? No thoughts, no feelings, no sensations? How would this be possible?

[dparansky]

Dear Canfora,

The mind keeps trying to reassert itself with "but, but, but." However, it is clear that there is nothing to crash because sensations, feelings, and thoughts arise on their own.

I can't find an inside and an outside, no. Thoughts create inside and outside, but in direct experience, there is no boundary.

Life is happening; fear is happening; confusion is happening; beauty is happening; love is happening. These, of course, are just labels for indescribable appearances. Although an I tries to assert itself, it is clearly just another appearance.

Thank you. Love,

David

[Canfora]

Dear David,

Great! You are seeing beyond thoughts! I'm so happy for you :)

Remember this?

How do I expect my life will change with the seeing of no self? Here is what comes:

1. There will be an end to fear of outcomes (death, financial stuff, illness, emotional suffering, my son's wellbeing, planetary destruction, etc.). This bodymind will not be seen as more important, or necessary to sustain, than apparent others.
2. The nervous system of this bodymind will be released (either quickly or gradually) of its major anxieties and tensions.
3. There will no longer be the sense that awareness is encapsulated "inside" the bodymind. The one Life/Self will be known to permeate every "thing."
4. There will be an end to resisting what is arising in present awareness and grasping for what is not present.
5. Conflict with "others" will diminish in intensity, and there will be little suffering or clinging to thoughts of rightness/wrongness when conflict does appear.
6. There will likely be more spontaneity in what arises as it is not passed through the filter of ego (There will no longer be self-consciousness).

How are you seeing expectations now?

Can you see anything changing in everyday life?

There's anything you want to talk with me regarding the illusion of self? Any doubts that you can't answer for yourself? :)

Love, Canfora

[dparansky]

Thanks, Canfora!

I can see that my original expectations were just thoughts...and they were thoughts mostly about thoughts! I think that may be one of the most helpful things to come from this process, actually. :)

I don't really see any changes in everyday life. The same cycles seem to come and go, moods, compulsions, etc. But there isn't much of a story about them anymore. And when the story comes up, it is easy to see through.

I don't have any doubts I can't answer myself at the moment. If something arises over the next few days/weeks, I assume you will still receive notification if I post to this topic, right?

Thanks very, very much for putting your energy and time into this process.

Lots of gratitude and love,

[Canfora]

Nice, David!

I can see that my original expectations were just thoughts...and they were thoughts mostly about thoughts! I think that may be one of the most helpful things to come from this process, actually. :)

I agree :)

Thanks very, very much for putting your energy and time into this process.

It is a pleasure. Thank you for being here and for your answers.

I don't have any doubts I can't answer myself at the moment. If something arises over the next few days/weeks, I assume you will still receive notification if I post to this topic, right?

Yes, I will and David, LU has after care for people who cross the Gate that functions mainly in Facebook groups... There are many wonderful people there with whom you can also talk about this.

Before that, can you please answer LU final questions?

These questions can help you express the insight and Seeing so far and I will ask other guides to read this post and see if they have more questions for you.

There is no rush - you can answer them all at once or one or two at a time, what feels best to you.

Just remember to answer from your direct experience.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?


Love, Canfora

[dparansky]

Dear Canfora,

I will reply to the questions over the next few days. Today has been a busy day.

Thank you again. Love,

David

[Canfora]

Dear David,

No problem, take your time :)

Love, Canfora

[Canfora]

Dear David, how are things going? Still busy?

I would love to see your answers to these questions :)

Love, Canfora

[dparansky]

Dear Canfora,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

There has never been and never will be a separate self. There are only thoughts that claim a self in reference to what appears as life flows.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

There are different ways to answer this. If it is seen that time is only a construct, then it is also seen that self arises only as a fleeting thought arising and falling away now. But in the "life of a person," thought starts very early when a child is told by the world that s/he is a separate entity with an "I" and that this "I" has lots of characteristics that are inherent to it. In my own experience, the sense of self arises as a thought that appears to attach to thoughts, sensations and especially to the body appearance. Just like we say, "It is raining,' we also create an imaginary subject when we include a pronoun with an action, "I am tired," for example. In reality, there is no "it" that is raining and no "I" that is tired. Not that it is necessary (or even a good idea) to drop the use of specific words (e.g. personal pronouns). This is necessary in society, but these words do not point to an actual existing entity. Another way of putting it is to say that the separate self is the activity of resisting what is here/now and seeking what is not here/now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

There is no difference, really. The only thing that I notice is that I don't seem to cling to outcomes as much as before. Since the "I" is seen as a phantom, it doesn't really matter so much when "I" don't get things "my" way. But I think this dissolution of clinging had already begun prior to beginning the LU process.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

No specific noticeable event. There just never was a separate self.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

All decisions, intentions, and actions that manipulate the content of life appear out of nowhere. There is nobody who makes any of them happen, no "little person in the head" who is directing things. When "I decide" to do something, what actually happens is that there may be two different alternatives that come to mind (e.g. Buy something vs. don't buy it). One thought has a "more rational" story/stronger emotional energy behind it, and that's the alternative that "wins," and the choice is made. Sometimes there is simply an impulse to do something that comes out of nowhere. There may be a big, complex story associated with a happening, but that story and the action that happens, just arise out of nothing (and go back into nothing), and that all happens in this "space" of aware presence.

6) Anything to add?

There are still all sorts of emotions, thoughts, sensations that arise. The same as before. They are just seen to be here for no one. And the sense of a separate self still comes and asserts itself. It is just clear that it has no reality.

Thank you! I look forward to any reflections you may have. Love,

David