Requesting Guidance

[Patrick]

Hi Raven,

Thanks for your honesty and your feedback.
In the beginning it is sometimes searching how to communicate clearly.

I can’t help you in any way. I can only point to the illusion of the I until you see this directly.
Seeing how the mind wants to make a story of the direct experience of life. Seeing that the mind creates the story of ‘me’ , ‘I’, ‘self’ and continues to believe that it is real.

Looking at this believes directly by seeing how they were created is what we do here.
We don’t go in any story because they maintain the illusion of the ‘I’.
This can be very dry in the beginning until you see how it works.

Therefore we start with what is real. The 5 senses are real.
Looking how we experience life directly through the senses without labeling, judging, making a story
of it. Seeing that this labeling, judging is coming after experiencing.
Seeing this more and more crumbles the believe in a real ‘I’.

I still experience this life as a “me,” even though it’s known for the fiction it is, especially after investigating it. Very confused!
We can start with looking at what is this ‘me’ you are experiencing.
Could you describe in detail what this 'me' is by looking directly at the sensations, thoughts and feelings that are present when you are experiencing ‘me’. Look, see and write it down without interpretation.

Do we continue to work in this way or do you feel that you need another approach?

[Raven]

Hi Raven,

Thanks for your honesty and your feedback.
In the beginning it is sometimes searching how to communicate clearly.

I can’t help you in any way. I can only point to the illusion of the I until you see this directly.
Seeing how the mind wants to make a story of the direct experience of life. Seeing that the mind creates the story of ‘me’ , ‘I’, ‘self’ and continues to believe that it is real.

Looking at this believes directly by seeing how they were created is what we do here.
We don’t go in any story because they maintain the illusion of the ‘I’.
This can be very dry in the beginning until you see how it works.

Therefore we start with what is real. The 5 senses are real.
Looking how we experience life directly through the senses without labeling, judging, making a story
of it. Seeing that this labeling, judging is coming after experiencing.
Seeing this more and more crumbles the believe in a real ‘I’.

I still experience this life as a “me,” even though it’s known for the fiction it is, especially after investigating it. Very confused!
We can start with looking at what is this ‘me’ you are experiencing.
Could you describe in detail what this 'me' is by looking directly at the sensations, thoughts and feelings that are present when you are experiencing ‘me’. Look, see and write it down without interpretation.

Do we continue to work in this way or do you feel that you need another approach?

Thank you for responding. I get the process, but felt like it was communicating with a computer rather than another five sense appearance :o) I read quite a few threads, and the book, before asking for a guide, and they were all quite different from what was happening here. It helps to have some kind of “sense” of one’s Guide, which wasn’t happening. This posting helps, and a tad more along this line would go a long way. I sincerely appreciate your willingness to guide me.

BTW, sorry to tell you this, but “you” do help by pointing to the illusion of the “I.” If you were helping to make things prettier I’d be gone in an instant…that’s not what’s wanted. So, let’s move on, looking within at the “sensations, thoughts and feelings” as I experience a “me."

The sensations right now are a clutching at the heart, a churning stomach, and pressure behind the eyes. My thoughts are that I never developed a sense of self like others and this life has been a “burden” - in a kind of free-fall - and have had to “fight” just to have any kind of life because I doubt my right to exist. The “me” feels amorphous and yet at the same time very strong. It’s amazing that something that doesn’t exist can feel so real - I guess this is THE cosmic joke.

So now I feel lighter, and smiling, but the sensations are the same…different interpretation? Still get the occasional nanosecond glimpse of the truth.

[Patrick]

What I try is to question your answers, not or as less as possible to tell how I see it, so that you can see it by yourself.

It’s amazing that something that doesn’t exist can feel so real.
Do you see this, that it doesn’t exist as a separate entity, that it’s only a feeling ?

Still get the occasional nanosecond glimpse of the truth.
Could you tell more about these glimpses?

[Raven]

What I try is to question your answers, not or as less as possible to tell how I see it, so that you can see it by yourself.

Got it!

It’s amazing that something that doesn’t exist can feel so real.
Do you see this, that it doesn’t exist as a separate entity, that it’s only a feeling ?

There is absolutely no doubt (something "I" specialize in), but it is not yet the felt reality.

Still get the occasional nanosecond glimpse of the truth.
Could you tell more about these glimpses?

The glimpse is more like a sudden flash of insight, but am unable to capture and hold it…like a memory that can’t quite be grasped or like déjà vu.


Well, this has become like an obsession! Anything else that arises during the day is a distraction and I get it over with as fast as possible.

Raven

[Patrick]

There is absolutely no doubt (something "I" specialize in), but it is not yet the felt reality.
What should be changed or happen to experience it as reality?

Seeing is directly, it is not possible to memorize because it has nothing to do with the mind.
Notice in a relaxed way how life is flowing, that is goes his way without anyone in control.
How is it to see this?

[Raven]

Hi Patrick,

In the Totally Weird Department (because dreams of any significance very rarely happen here): Fell asleep yesterday afternoon and dreamt that I was sitting at a large table with some other people, the room was all hazy, and I was a little woozy because I could see thru the illusion, but knew that I really hadn’t, and hadn’t really.

What should be changed or happen to experience it as reality?

Not sure - but certainly “I” have no control over it – it’s just going to happen when it happens. Maybe it’s a matter of somehow getting out of the way, which obviously “I” can’t do.

Seeing is directly, it is not possible to memorize because it has nothing to do with the mind.
Notice in a relaxed way how life is flowing, that is goes his way without anyone in control.
How is it to see this?

I do understand that it’s not a memory in the ordinary mind-sense. More like a shift in identification or realization of the truth - maybe that’s why sometimes it’s called Truth Realization :O)? But perhaps it’s a re-membering or re-cognition of what has always been known, but through intuition not the mind. Definitely not a memory in the ordinary sense.

Now I find myself worrying that I won’t get it, Fear actually…then again, of course “I” won’t. Oh, dear! It always comes back to that.

As much as possible I am looking at all this. I keep writing, writing, writing to see if this all can be sorted out, but we shall see. Have also been spending time relaxing, "watching the flow." It's a different and interesting perspective.

[Patrick]

it’s just going to happen when it happens
Very wise.

More like a shift in identification or realization of the truth
See it more as a shift in perception. The world, reality, is what it is, only your relation to it changes.

Now I find myself worrying that I won’t get it, Fear actually…
Look at this fear. What is the bodily sensation of this fear?
Be with this bodily sensation without thoughts. What happens?

Have also been spending time relaxing, "watching the flow." It's a different and interesting perspective.
Nice. Continue with this. Go from watching to being the flow in total relaxation.

[Raven]

More like a shift in identification or realization of the truth
See it more as a shift in perception. The world, reality, is what it is, only your relation to it changes.

Thanks - clear!

Now I find myself worrying that I won’t get it, Fear actually…
Look at this fear. What is the bodily sensation of this fear?
Be with this bodily sensation without thoughts. What happens?

Sensation of Fear: Gripping in pit of stomach, crushing up through throat. If the sensation is simply observed, it weakens. I’ve noticed and reconfirmed here that how a bodily sensation is perceived depends entirely upon how it’s labeled. If I look at the thought it disappears (I can’t watch thoughts - when they’re noticed they dissolve) or, like with the feeling of fear, if I then think about something I love then the sensation remains but is experienced differently. Anyway, I finally decided to ask the fear why it was there and what it was telling me (I hate doing this New Age kinda stuff), and it seems that it’s protecting me from disappointment and failure…if no action is taken then there’s no chance of failure (and hope remains). I feel like this is my last chance for freedom and if I fail, if I don’t “get it,” then there’s no place to go.

Have also been spending time relaxing, "watching the flow." It's a different and interesting perspective.
Nice. Continue with this. Go from watching to being the flow in total relaxation.

Am not quite sure how to go from watching the flow to “being the flow” but am working on it.

[Patrick]

Am not quite sure how to go from watching the flow to “being the flow” but am working on it.
You can’t do it, just relax, total relaxation, let it happen.

Fear can block this.
Like you say, simply observing the sensation weakens it.
Thoughts are building a story from this sensation. Once see through like seeing that the snake is just a rope takes all the emotional stuff away from it.

that it’s protecting me from disappointment and failure
What is this me that has to be protected?

Notice the difference between
the character, the player named Raven with her likes and dislikes, preferences, talents, abilities and inabilities. This is how life expresses life.
and
the personality, the self-image, the sense of self, the identity build over the years, pushed by the society to change what they dislike, to conform for to be appreciated, … .
This is not real. This is the illusion of the I. The story to see through.

[Raven]

Am not quite sure how to go from watching the flow to “being the flow” but am working on it.
You can’t do it, just relax, total relaxation, let it happen.

Alone all day today: R E L A X !!!!!

Fear can block this.
Like you say, simply observing the sensation weakens it.
Thoughts are building a story from this sensation. Once see through like seeing that the snake is just a rope takes all the emotional stuff away from it.

that it’s protecting me from disappointment and failure
What is this me that has to be protected?

It’s like a false self is created, and then that false self has to be protected from any so-called injury – its illusion piled on top of illusion. Pretty funny!

Notice the difference between
the character, the player named Raven with her likes and dislikes, preferences, talents, abilities and inabilities. This is how life expresses life.
and
the personality, the self-image, the sense of self, the identity build over the years, pushed by the society to change what they dislike, to conform for to be appreciated, … .
This is not real. This is the illusion of the I. The story to see through.

Wow! This is a good one and will need to spend some time with it.


Thank you!

Raven

[Raven]

Notice the difference between
the character, the player named Raven with her likes and dislikes, preferences, talents, abilities and inabilities. This is how life expresses life.
and
the personality, the self-image, the sense of self, the identity build over the years, pushed by the society to change what they dislike, to conform for to be appreciated, … .
This is not real. This is the illusion of the I. The story to see through.

Question: I get how natural talents, abilities and inabilities are innate and could be lost or enhanced due to life experience. But aren’t characteristics such as likes/dislikes and preferences more a result of conditioning? To be honest, I’m not even sure the answer to this will get me anywhere, but I’m curious.

[Patrick]

Take a taste you dislike. Are you able to change it? Was it conditioned that you should dislike it?
Also with the basic preferences (inclinations).
Is there a me involved in this likes/dislikes and preferences?

A lot of conditionings are troubling the view of what really belongs to the character and what is not a natural part of it.
Look at that. See what is real and what is not.
See what is really life and what are just thoughts and stories.
Just noticing.

[Raven]

Raven: "Am not quite sure how to go from watching the flow to “being the flow” but am working on it."
Patrick: You can’t do it, just relax, total relaxation, let it happen.

Went into total relaxation and sensed that there are no boundaries between the body and the surroundings, and even though there’s a lot of pain it just seems localized, not “me.” (Many times I look at the pain neutrally, detached, and don’t experience it the same way as when there’s a “me” involved. However, there are very sudden, very fierce pains that take me totally by surprise that are very difficult to deal with: I’m screaming before I know what’s happened.)

Anyway, this “melting into the universe” is a long time practice. However, the interpretation of the experience is that it’s just “my” imagination.

Take a taste you dislike. Are you able to change it? Was it conditioned that you should dislike it?
Also with the basic preferences (inclinations).
Is there a me involved in this likes/dislikes and preferences?

A lot of conditionings are troubling the view of what really belongs to the character and what is not a natural part of it.
Look at that. See what is real and what is not.
See what is really life and what are just thoughts and stories.
Just noticing.

Yes, I feel that I can change a dislike by gradually introducing it. For example, I didn’t like broccoli, so I started making Hollandaise sauce for it (which I love), and gradually cut back on the sauce. But what makes the decision to do this and what does it? And why was the stuff not liked to begin with? I actually don’t like the texture of fruit and it has to be ripened just so, etc., before I’m willing to eat it…can eat an apple in slices but not bite into the entire fruit. Definitely a preference and no conditioning involved. But it’s still experienced as “my” preferences. Hmmm…got the difference though and will observe.



I keep looking but don’t see the “I” - keep thinking that I haven’t looked hard enough, or just haven’t found it yet. There’s definitely a body, the thoughts, the emotions, but no “I.” Is it at all possible to prove a negative? What’s missing is the realization that there is no “I.”

[Patrick]

When does pain become suffering?

Is there someone to melt with the universe?
Is there something separate from the universe?

I keep looking but don’t see the “I”.
There’s definitely a body, the thoughts, the emotions, but no “I.”
What’s missing is the realization that there is no “I.”
Very funny. Nice trick of the mind.
Tell what the realization of the no-self would be.

[Raven]

When does pain become suffering?

Pain becomes suffering when it’s personalized and made part of the story of “me.” Otherwise it’s just pain.

Is there someone to melt with the universe?
Is there something separate from the universe?

The senses combined with conditioning create the physical universe, which is real and unreal; so “everyone” and “everything” are really undifferentiated parts of the whole.

I keep looking but don’t see the “I”.
There’s definitely a body, the thoughts, the emotions, but no “I.”
What’s missing is the realization that there is no “I.”
Very funny. Nice trick of the mind.
Tell what the realization of the no-self would be.

Very crafty mind here – always thinking :o) !
Don’t really know what realization of no-self would be like, but keep thinking it’s some kind of small shift in perception or identification. From all that’s been read, it certainly appears that it’s recognized as such “when” it happens. Is it at all possible to be liberated and not know it? Or is that the case anyhow, as has been said many, many times? But what’s the point of unknowingly sitting on a pot of gold while thinking and living like you’re poor? If the gold isn’t recognized or known about, it might as well not be there.