Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

however the basic assumption of separateness still lingers underneath

"OH, THIS STORY IS NOT REALLY REAL!

The story is real, the subject matter probably fanciful. But of course there is some kind of investment in what it is about, so to dismiss it is pretty confronting for the 'creator and defender'. Instead of downright denial or suppression, a gental overlay of reminding that it is not NOW... That is is somewhere in the past or future is enough.

because "not real" is more an idea than a knowing.

Mind psychology doesn't recognize the negative, so when we say "not real", the message that gets through is "real". Replace "not real" with "probably fanciful" or "only relevant in the story", etc.

so if this process of yielding has its own timing,

i'm being a bit pedantic here.. It will only happen NOW. In fact it HAS already happened, but simply isn't recognized (and celebrated) yet. (i keep getting definite 'signals' the this is so, and i stand firm amidst your (potential) disappointment and disbelief. IT IS ONLY TO BE SEEN !

but laughing for a reason (e.g., the absurdity of taking this self seriously) hasn't quite landed into present experiencing,

Laughing at the absurdity is fine, but that has to happen as a recognition response. Laughing in celebration of the realization that it happened (seeing the story start) can be promulgated.

it still feels like this mind needs to jump through some sort of cosmic hoop to really SEE

Now THAT is the story that has you (still) sucked in.
The further down the line i get the more ordinary it seems. That is until i see how others suffering in a totally unnecessary way because of (mostly) incredibly fanciful stories that they totally (and uncritically) believe.


love love & WonderFull-ness.

vince

in a way that shifts allegiance

that this story of self is just a story that doesn't need protecting, maneuvering, responding, etc.

[ixturtle]

Lots of subtle distinctions and skillful guiding here-- thank you, as always.

Put all together then, this story of not quite seeing is not NOW, probably fanciful, and only relevant to the story.

Bottoms up! Hahaha...

Intention to drink it in, then Noticing a sadness arise-- as these same descriptions are applied to a current story of loss. Can see that that "loss" is not now, that the story is probably fanciful and indeed that it is only relevant to the story, which is in this case (and every case I suppose) the story of self.

But (correct me if i go astray here) The sadness IS now, is comprised of label-less moment to moment sensations that are not fanciful, and IS relevant to the moment as it passes. The sensations are triggered by (and also subsequently trigger additional) stories that are not now, are fanciful and only relevant to the story.

To stay with the sensation as real or to release it as born of false pretense, bearing false (all too familiar, certainly toxic) fruit-- this is the balancing act I find myself working with, though the "balanceing" is just conditionIng playing itself out. Rejecting nothing, this is here too.

[vinceschubert]

The sadness IS now

No, the sensation is NOW. It's the label that gives birth to the story (of sadness)

comprised of label-less moment to moment sensations that are not fanciful, and IS relevant to the moment as it passes.

The sensations are not fanciful, but the idea that they are relevant to the moment is again story. (the minds obsession with applying meaning to everything).
Certainly if cause and effect are given credibility there may SEEM relevance. Whether there is or not can't be known and doesn't matter. The sensation exists. It is Real. Why, how etc is story.
Of course there are responses to the sensations that are equally Real, but unnecessary if the sensation is not embellished with story.

To stay with the sensation as real or to release...

Ah, this is the big one. This presupposes a doer, a choice, control.
What is it that can choose to decide to stay with it or release it ?
What is it that can control the outcome ?
LOOK, what is found ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

[quote]What is it that can choose to decide to stay with it or release it ? [/quote
Mind can have a conversation about staying/releasing but response is what happens anyway-- the action born of "Conditioning"-- although it feels like I use the word conditioning a lot without pausing to recognize the implication-- e.g., lack of independent actor.
When pause is taken and no actor/controller is seen, mind identifies as helpless puppet bearing consequences of said conditioning.
How to unravel story of puppet? Or rather the suffering that belief/identification in the story creates?

[vinceschubert]

Mind can have a conversation about staying/releasing but response is what happens anyway-- the action born of "Conditioning"

So no I, anywhere to be found. Just the result of countless conditions that were 'actioned' some time in the past ?

no actor/controller is seen, mind identifies as helpless puppet

Of course. The mind as a controller, starts to realize it's inherent lack of control.
Is there another part of the mind that rejoices in the freedom from the responsibility of being constantly in charge ?

How to unravel story of puppet?

Does it need unravelling ?
..or is this the mind clinging to the remnants of control ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

So no I, anywhere to be found. Just the result of countless conditions that were 'actioned' some time in the past ?

No controller, when looked for, is found.

Does "no controller" necessarily mean "No I"?

Is there another part of the mind that rejoices in the freedom from the responsibility of being constantly in charge ?

There is some growing sense of ease --sometimes-- with not having to "decide" but the helpless puppet feeling smacks of victimhood which is the opposite of freedom.

[vinceschubert]

Does "no controller" necessarily mean "No I"?

If there was a controller, could it be anything other than the I (which presupposes that there is an I too)

the helpless puppet feeling

The feeling is real, but is the perception that is the 'cause' of the feeling real ?

the ... feeling smacks of victimhood

Can this be anything other than story ?
Is it Recognized ?

[ixturtle]

If there was a controller, could it be anything other than the I

certainly a controller would be the "I". there just appears to be identification even sans controller, or rather recognizing the absence/impossibility of a controller. but that brings us to your next question:

The feeling is real, but is the perception that is the 'cause' of the feeling real ?

admittedly, the perception driving the feeling labeled "helpless puppet" --which is along the lines of "ok, so no controller, but so what, everything still sucks and it's even worse because there's nothing even to be done about it" -- is of course all story.

that said, a rather insightful friend noted recently that when I catch myself in story and label it as "all story" that there's a way in which there's less presence, rather than more... so the story that it's all story seems to be used to disengage rather than relax into.

[vinceschubert]

there just appears to be identification even sans controller

How is this recognized ?

"ok, so no controller, but so what, everything still sucks and it's even worse because there's nothing even to be done about it"

Is there no recognition that Recognition has occurred ?

so the story that it's all story seems to be used to disengage

Tricky little sucker, the mind. Yes, seems to be a denial process and a suppression, rather than a dropping of it and a celebration that it was seen. Let's see if this revelation changes things...

love

vince

[ixturtle]

ixturtle wrote:there just appears to be identification even sans controller

How is this recognized ?

perhaps this is all mind gymnastics here. that the mind and body respond according to conditioning is obvious, but perhaps that "obviousness" is just the mind doing "logic" with itself (mistaking that it is seeing something when it's really just caught up in more thinking?) . nevertheless, the "identification sans controller" appears as a mental story that has strong preferences re., the experience of this particular mind/body. so even when that story accepts that conditioning rules, it still asserts its identification/solidarity with this body-mind's story, which of course it would since that's what it's conditioned to do...

Is there no recognition that Recognition has occurred ?

i remember the person (not rose) that you asked me to read a while back that when she crossed the gate there was absolute clarity of what had been seen. one piece that stuck with me was a comment re., there not being any need/desire/sense in talking about this with anyone because who was there to tell. once again, the mind logically accepts that what it experiences is a projection, but at the same time gets thoroughly caught up in the "realness" of its own story, as well as its' own story of everyone else. the mind has a story about this distinction i guess and thus does not call this "recognition"...

Tricky little sucker, the mind. Yes, seems to be a denial process and a suppression, rather than a dropping of it and a celebration that it was seen. Let's see if this revelation changes things...

no major shift, but yes, more awareness of the "all story" story... i remember at one point on this site last summer requesting a lobotomy, which at the moment-- rereading this post-- feels like a good idea...

[ixturtle]

Hope all is well with you Vince. Realized I had fallen into the trap of waiting for a response when really, what keeps me plugged into this process is my own daily engagement with it.

To me the bit in the last post that stands out is

it still asserts its identification/solidarity with this body-mind's story, which of course it would since that's what it's conditioned to do...

I guess I somehow expect the mind to behave differently and for that to be the sign of a crossing, when really, there's no use expecting the mind to behave differently than it's conditioned to do. presumably "seeing" would begin to dismantle some of that conditioning, but it's not a condition for seeing...

[vinceschubert]

Thing are fine here. Just getting slack here. When nothing jumps out, i find that just waiting often reveals the next pointing.

I guess I somehow expect the mind to behave differently and for that to be the sign of a crossing, when really, there's no use expecting the mind to behave differently than it's conditioned to do.

This is a pretty liberated SEEing.
Does it permeate ?
If a liberated person goes through the full range of human 'conditions', Then what is the difference between the liberated and the 'yet to be liberated' ?

love & peace

vince

[ixturtle]

Does it permeate ?

It's more like a mild skin irritation at the moment really... an itch that I easily forget but when things are quiet calls my attention-- if the mind is not a reliable barometer then what is the use of all this blah blah blah? if nothing i could possible think is reliable, then all there is is this. which i realize is what you've been saying all along, ha ha ha. the "irritation" i guess is its potential to confuse and short circuit the mind... imagining a robot start to spark and fizzle... but this mind is highly conditioned to prevent sparks and fizzle so penetration remains at bay.

If a liberated person goes through the full range of human 'conditions', Then what is the difference between the liberated and the 'yet to be liberated' ?

this mind wants to tell you that it is so much more than this, but if the mind is not to be trusted as truth (or as source of truth or as reliable commentator on truth) then i guess the only difference between the liberated and the yet to be liberated that this mind can offer is that the liberated recognizes the mind for what it is (conditioned impulses producing endless stories about its apparent "human condition") and the yet to be liberated still believes that those same stories are akin to truth.

this mind feels like it's stuck in a netherworld between the two... but then again, that observation is not to be trusted... spark, fizzle, fizzle, spark...

[vinceschubert]

what is the use of all this blah blah blah?

Can there be any use for it ? Can it be any more or less useful than the wind blowing or the sun shining ?
Is there a relationship between usefulness and meaning ?
Is cause and effect involved here ?

so penetration remains at bay.

Do you think Revelation is more apt than Penetration ?

the liberated recognizes the mind for what it is (conditioned impulses producing endless stories about its apparent "human condition") and the yet to be liberated still believes that those same stories are akin to truth.

Which is true for you ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

Can there be any use for (blah blah blah)? Can it be any more or less useful than the wind blowing or the sun shining ?
Is there a relationship between usefulness and meaning ?
Is cause and effect involved here ?

The only answer that stands a chance of being remotely true is that the blah blah blah, in the moment of expression (this too), is just what is happening now. the mind wants to add that the sun shining is probably more useful than blah blah blah but that blah blah blah is at least more useful than dumping toxic goop into a lake... but that takes a mind to evaluate (more blah blah blah) which brings us back to your second question: yes, usefulness requires meaning and meaning is a mental overlay.

not sure how to answer the cause and effect question... the sun shines, a plant grows. there's blah blah blah, and then perhaps, something is seen. yes? no?

Do you think Revelation is more apt than Penetration ?

Both words feel hollow at the moment. The realization that the mind may not say "AHA! I SEE!" was a surprise... the corollary that there is nothing left to rely on but what can be experienced directly is something we've been dancing around for a year (and indeed, has been the finger pointing at the moon for many years now).

ixturtle wrote:the liberated recognizes the mind for what it is (conditioned impulses producing endless stories about its apparent "human condition") and the yet to be liberated still believes that those same stories are akin to truth.

Which is true for you ?

is there such a thing as gate purgatory? there is distrust in the stories and yet the momentum of this character persists, including the conviction that there's clarity not yet seen. the recognition that even that conviction is story leaves open space, quickly filled with the momentum of the character.

it does appear to be helpful to return to it again and again though.