So close and yet...please help?

[GateNudger]

Thank you Sarah,

Keep on with this. Very useful.

Still no smiling but I did get a thought about the absurdity of all this drama over this 'poor little me' character.

Story.

I noticed today how the story sometimes has two "me" characters. In addition to 'poor little me' there is also 'narrator me' who addresses 'poor little me' and says things like: "You're telling yourself stories!" When 'narrator me' tells 'poor little me' that he is telling himself stories, 'narrator me' seems to think that he himself is real and isn't telling stories like 'poor little me' is.

I could tell myself a story about what all this means but I will just say that it shows how the brain will churn out pure fiction with the air of being a supreme truth teller.


I have also noticed that a major stumbling block crumbled today. I had thought that when I do some fine detail thinking like imagining some sort of process from beginning to end, that here was evidence of a self at work-a self that was manipulating thought and consciously 'carving out' a mental landscape. As this is done with great precision it seemed like strong evidence for a "me" as the director of thought.

I saw through this when I realised that every new 'scene' in these elaborate thought processes appears spontaneously and therefore is not being directed by a "me". As this had been a big stumbling block for me I will keep on playing out various scenarios to drive home the point just as I am doing with the finger moving exercise.

Still an expectation. Still comparison. This may not be your experience. We are concerned here with that not what someone else has experienced which is their story.

I did have a chuckle after I twigged the 'no director' point but I promise I won't have any expectations about becoming less of a miserable old git after going through the gate.

Look while you play and mix this with the above.

Yes, it looks as if the guitar playing could be helpful with this investigation. Having said that it does seem that everything is becoming helpful with this investigation.

Apologies for the late post.

No apology needed. I would have posted around this time even if I hadn't have received your reply. Your guidance is deeply appreciated and needed, but it does seem like this process has got a life of it's own.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter (or should I say old git!)

Still no smiling but I did get a thought about the absurdity of all this drama over this 'poor little me' character.

Good. Keep going and keep looking.

I noticed today how the story sometimes has two "me" characters. In addition to 'poor little me' there is also 'narrator me' who addresses 'poor little me' and says things like: "You're telling yourself stories!" When 'narrator me' tells 'poor little me' that he is telling himself stories, 'narrator me' seems to think that he himself is real and isn't telling stories like 'poor little me' is.

Yes I experienced this too and still. That’s partly whats so funny! As looking happens it does change - as with everything.

I could tell myself a story about what all this means but I will just say that it shows how the brain will churn out pure fiction with the air of being a supreme truth teller.

Mind tells stories – its what it does. Does it have to mean anything? Is it any different to the space created when playing happens? There is just playing – with mind there is just thoughts thinking. What is the difference?

I have also noticed that a major stumbling block crumbled today. I had thought that when I do some fine detail thinking like imagining some sort of process from beginning to end, that here was evidence of a self at work-a self that was manipulating thought and consciously 'carving out' a mental landscape. As this is done with great precision it seemed like strong evidence for a "me" as the director of thought.
I saw through this when I realised that every new 'scene' in these elaborate thought processes appears spontaneously and therefore is not being directed by a "me". As this had been a big stumbling block for me I will keep on playing out various scenarios to drive home the point just as I am doing with the finger moving exercise.

Lovely. Keep looking.

I did have a chuckle after I twigged the 'no director' point but I promise I won't have any expectations about becoming less of a miserable old git after going through the gate.

I am smiling writing this! You think the miserable old git will disappear????? Habits are formed. Is being an old git a habit? Look. If recognised is it any different to thoughts or guitar playing?

Yes, it looks as if the guitar playing could be helpful with this investigation. Having said that it does seem that everything is becoming helpful with this investigation.

Where is the controller here Peter? Where is the control? You ‘know’ this already, use it and keep looking.

No apology needed. I would have posted around this time even if I hadn't have received your reply. Your guidance is deeply appreciated and needed, but it does seem like this process has got a life of it's own.

Your right – these posts find a way to work. Love Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Thank you Sarah,

Is being an old git a habit? Look. If recognised is it any different to thoughts or guitar playing?

Playing ( no player ), thinking ( no thinker ), gitting ( no git ).

Where is the controller here Peter? Where is the control?

Quite right. Playing guitar happens by itself. Looking to see if there is a player also happens by itself.

As looking happens it does change - as with everything.

As discernment increases it's as if changes in thought images slow down. If I ask myself: "what are you going to do now?" there is quite a 'clunky' response to this. Initially there are no images and then it's like someone struggling to find the reverse gear in a car; the mind seems to stutter to churn out an image. Then there may be a flurry of images and then there's a gap; then there's more 'clunking' etc.

Keep going and keep looking.

I have started asking myself things like: "What are you going to have for breakfast?", "what are your plans for today?" etc. Here any putative self has to put in an appearance.

I heard a spiritual teacher say that most of the time no "I" is needed; most of the time there are just automatic responses to things, but for 1 or 2% of the time a self is needed - to make decisions and plans. I think this is quite a common view even among those who are looked up to as gurus. I am testing this belief to destruction. To say that there is absolutely no self is such a radical statement to make. It is mind-blowing. It is the most revolutionary thing that I have ever come across. I am stunned by it. And yet my looking is again and again and again finding 'no one at home'. The above 1 or 2% seem very elusive indeed.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter
Lovely responses to looking.

I heard a spiritual teacher say

Yes indeed!

I would like to ask you some final questions because I feel a shift has been experienced.

I will then show your answers to the other guides and see what they think if that is ok with you? Take as much time as you need to answer or do half at a time, whatever, but I would like you to answer as fully as possible.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) 2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
3) 3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.
4) 4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?
5) 5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.
6) 6) Anything to add?

Love Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Hi Sarah,

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No to both.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

It's a false belief that there's a conscious controller of thoughts, words and actions. It starts at a very young age when someone comes to believe that such a controller actually exists. It makes a lot of sense to believe in a self because it explains how human beings are able to do all the very precise and delicate things they do every day; they can do them because there is a clever self consciously doing all these things.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

It feels like a point of great resolution has been reached, that the truth has been found. There is a feeling of melancholy that has arisen as if a great turning point has been reached and that I am saying goodbye to something. There is also a slight dizzy feeling. There is a feeling of 'what will become of me now?', like I am in free-fall. I remind myself that nothing has changed, that it's not as if I had a self before and now I've lost it. Despite this reassurance a sense of disorientation persists. In the past few days I haven't wanted to do my spiritual practices and I have hardly done any of them. This is very unusual as I am normally very disciplined about it. It leaves me with an uneasy feeling of uncertainty about other changes that may occur.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

It was asking myself questions that required complex answers and watching the mind stuttering to churn out images. Watching this process going on made it clear to me that this process was happening automatically, that there really wasn't a "me" doing any of this.

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give
examples from your experience.

No to both. All these things get done without a conscious decider, chooser, controller, manipulator. I am staggered that all these things happen without a "me" there to do them but that is what I have seen to be true. Even long, intricate bouts of imagination like planning exactly what I'm going to do the next day have been seen to be spontaneous arisings from start to finish. Complex tasks like playing the guitar just happen automatically. There is no "me" doing them.

6) Anything to add?

There was no 'eureka!' moment in this, which is a surprise. It was more like a dawning realisation. There have been times in the last 24 hours when I have got lost in the dream again but I 'woke up' again soon after. There have been some doubts that have arisen but they can be easily dismissed and when they are dismissed there is no sense that I am kidding myself. There is a solidity about this seeing.

Thank you very much, Sarah.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter

Im going to post your responses to the other guides and see what they think. There may be other questions if you are OK to answer, if they see anything that may need clarification.

We would then like you to join our aftercare groups on Facebook if you wish. I'll send you private message with a bit more detail. OK

I cant say how long this will take so if you can still check the post everyday that would be great. Thanks Peter. Talk to you soon. Sarah xx

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter
Got some further questions for you. I must apologies though I should have asked this before I asked the questions and not prompted you.
Do you feel that you have seen and that there has been a shift?

There is a feeling of melancholy that has arisen as if a great turning point has been reached and that I am saying goodbye to something.

With "you" revealed as imaginary, what remains?

There is a feeling of 'what will become of me now?', like I am in free-fall.

What lives?
What experiences?
What thinks?

Despite this reassurance a sense of disorientation persists. In the past few days I haven't wanted to do my spiritual practices and I have hardly done any of them. This is very unusual as I am normally very disciplined about it. It leaves me with an uneasy feeling of uncertainty about other changes that may occur.

What does?
What is aware?
Love Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Hi Sarah,

Do you feel that you have seen and that there has been a shift?

Yes.

With "you" revealed as imaginary, what remains?

A body and a brain doing what a body and a brain do.

What lives?

There is no 'liver', there is just living.

What experiences?

There is no experiencer, there is just experience.

What thinks?

There is no thinker, there is just thinking.

What does?

There is no doer, there is just doing.

What is aware?

There is no 'awarer', there is just 'awaring'.

[Sarah7]

Hi Peter

There is a feeling of melancholy that has arisen as if a great turning point has been reached and that I am saying goodbye to something.

There is a feeling of 'what will become of me now?', like I am in free-fall.

What is this "me" and this "I"?

In the past few days I haven't wanted to do my spiritual practices and I have hardly done any of them. This is very unusual as I am normally very disciplined about it. It leaves me with an uneasy feeling of uncertainty about other changes that may occur.

What are these "I"s and this "me"?

What are all these feelings? Are they attached to a character called "Peter"? How?

What emotions are present at the moment in response to this ‘seeing’, this shift? What reactions are you experiencing?
Love Sarah xx

[GateNudger]

Hi Sarah,

What is this "me" and this "I"?

They refer to the fictional character called "Peter" ( I wish I hadn't used a pseudonym now ;-) Spontaneous arisings of thought, words and actions are are attributed, by thought, to this character. Thought claims that "Peter" thinks, says and does these things. Belief in theses claims has disappeared.

What are all these feelings? Are they attached to a character called "Peter"? How?

These are also spontaneous arisings that thought attributes to the "Peter" character.

What emotions are present at the moment in response to this ‘seeing’, this shift? What reactions are you experiencing?

I feel very relieved and satisfied. Even before 'seeing' dawned there was a growing belief that the self was imaginary but believing was not enough. Now that the belief has turned into knowing it's like an itch has been scratched. It's like having removed an irritating stone from my shoe. A sense of 'mission accomplished' has arisen.

[GateNudger]

Hi Sarah,

I have been having a lot of uneasy feelings today and a lot of doubts. This is very troubling me to me after the clarity and certainty that I had before. It's like my seeing has been clouded. I find it bizarre because I can see that every feeling and thought is a spontaneous arising and so they disprove their own claims. The doubt thoughts are saying: "I don't care how many times you look and see only automaticity; there is still a self here."

Is this what sometimes happens after seeing or am I still on the wrong side of the gate? Was this a false dawn?