Looking for help.

[nothinker]

I understand your concern, and I too have those doubts sometimes. I am pretty certain that I have been through the Gate, that I have seen the absence of self for what it was, but still I am open to the possibility that I might be wrong, that there is more to this than I know. Let's have Ingen take it from here then, if you don't mind. I'm sure it will be an illumination for both of us.

[Ingen]

Hi Dawid,

I was following your thread loosely. You seem to be at the edge, but not stepping over it...
I'd like to take it up from here:

How am I perceiving an I?
I dont get it. Theres just a feeling that theres something doing everything, something that chooses thoughts etc.

This is exactly the illusion you are trying to see through. The nature of illusion is that it seems like something. The sense of I isn't the same as the I.

How does it seem when you are listening to stereo music? Isn't there a sense of the music playing in your head. Is it?
When you sit in a train and the neighbor train moves backwards, you get a sense that your own train is moving forward. Is it? (And now imagine that all your fellow passengers are sure that your train is moving forward)

Its like, I think that thoughts, emotions etc. come from some source and that source is called I.

Look closer. Trace one thought at a time back to where it comes from. I am pretty sure it was started by an outside impulse. Give me real life examples of chains of thoughts you have investigated.

[Dawid]

Nothinker thanks for understanding.


I get the train analogy. That's right, if the train next to the one Im sitting in starts moving it seems like Im moving. Also, if everyone else in the train believed that they're moving it would be hard to see whats actually going on.

As for the chains of thoughts it's hard for me to see that they are always caused by some outside impulse.
for example right now I looked at the desk and a thought of my girlfriend popped into my mind. I dont see any relation here. Of course, when I see someone then thoughts show up that are related to that person.

Just now, another thought popped up saying "I have to study for tomorrows exam". what outside impulse caused it? I cant see any, Im just staring at the screen, writing this. Theres nothing around reminding me of exam. To be honest, I feel like I want to prove you're wrong.

[Ingen]

As for the chains of thoughts it's hard for me to see that they are always caused by some outside impulse.
for example right now I looked at the desk and a thought of my girlfriend popped into my mind. I dont see any relation here. ...

You don't always notice the cause of a thought. For the thought of your girlfriend popping into your mind, I can imagine all kinds of f.x. bodily impulses.

Just now, another thought popped up saying "I have to study for tomorrows exam". what outside impulse caused it? I cant see any, Im just staring at the screen, writing this. Theres nothing around reminding me of exam.

"I have to study for tomorrows exam" doesn't quite sound like a thought original to your brain. (unless there is no exam tomorrow...)
Don't you think all students participating in this exam have exactly the same thought showing up - the exact time is of course dependent on the amount of studying already done, the conditioning of the brain allowing for more or less slack in preparation for exams, and a myriad of other things.


Btw. the issue we are talking about is:

Theres just a feeling that theres something doing everything, something that chooses thoughts etc. Its like, I think that thoughts, emotions etc. come from some source and that source is called I.

In both cases (girlfriend and exam) there was no "you" choosing, was there? Both thoughts just popped up, for some reason.

To be honest, I feel like I want to prove you're wrong.

Oh, by all means, do! That's what I am here for. (But don't assume that makes for uncaused thoughts.)


Try to think 5 uncaused thoughts of your choice now.

[Dawid]

Alright, I can agree on the noticing the cause of thought. I guess it's impossible to trace each thought to the thing that started it. Also, what you wrote about thought "I have to study... " seems true. The exam is believed to be important so theres a thought saying that I better start studying.

As for the choosing of thoughts, both just popped up. they just appeared.

Uncaused thoughts?

lets list my thoughts now:

- Im running out of vitamins - this one was caused cause my girlfriend took a book that was near the vitamins
- tomorrow is gonna be tough - caused, I looked at papers on my desk.
- the party last saturday was great - don't know where that one came from
- too bad my friend cant go out on wednesday evening - dont know where it came from again
- thought about my other friend - caused by thinking about going out
- this is boring - appeared after I noticed my posture
- I should do something about my school thesis - also dont know where it came from.

not sure if that's what you wanted me to do. if no then ask again and Ill do my best to answer properly. English is not my first language, so sometimes there might be some problems. Thanks.

[Ingen]

not sure if that's what you wanted me to do. if no then ask again and Ill do my best to answer properly. English is not my first language, so sometimes there might be some problems. Thanks.

Oh, that was perfect. May I rephrase: Thoughts just pop up. Caused mostly by outside impulses, if traceable.

Can you find a thinker of these thoughts? Or does the thought: "I was thinking this" appear as just another thought in the chain?

[Dawid]

Well, I can't find a thinker. What I also noticed is that thoughts also appear in reaction to previous thoughts, like we said earlier, just like a chain.

They show up as images or they are said silently. Can't find a thinker though.

The "I was ..." is also a thought. It's more noticible to me for example when my arm moves and then the thought appears "I moved my hand". For example just now I was aware of the fact Im blinking and the thought appeared "Im blinking".

[Ingen]

How are decisions done, Dawid?

[Dawid]

Everything I do is a decision. Every movement is a decision. How are they done? They just happen.

I could go on and talk about how it probably happens - Brain decides what is important to the organism and takes appropriate action etc. but I dont think it's the point here cause Im not sure of that.

So how do decisions happen? If it's for example a movement of hand, then the hand just moves from one place to another.

Let's say someone asks me "you want to go to X or Y?". Thoughts pop up about both places and then one of the places is probably prefered and Ill answer "let's go to X".

[Ingen]

Very well. Let's look at your above statement now:

How am I perceiving an I?
I dont get it. Theres just a feeling that theres something doing everything, something that chooses thoughts etc.

Is this "just a feeling" you are writing about more than just a feeling, being attached to actions, thoughts, decisions?

Is there a YOU?

[Dawid]

I wouldnt call it exactly a feeling. More like sureness, a knowing saying "there is something". The existence of such thing makes no sense to me, however theres a strong sense that "there MUST be something, it makes no sense but it's there!!!!!".

[Ingen]

I wouldnt call it exactly a feeling. More like sureness, a knowing saying "there is something". The existence of such thing makes no sense to me, however theres a strong sense that "there MUST be something, it makes no sense but it's there!!!!!".

Yes, the brainwash you went through is pretty intense. You grew up taking this character Dawid for real, all your life. And everybody else around you does, too.

And maybe they are right, and I am wrong.

You tell me. Is there a substantial YOU which is more than a label, a story, a practicality for tax purposes?

[Dawid]

Well I can't find anything. I don't know what else to write. I can't find anything that can be called I. There is nothing I can point my finger to and say "THIS IS I!"

And (I've been asked this question like one hundred times already)?

[Ingen]

How does it feel to be nothing? You don't find it scary that all you took yourself and others to be is nothing but a charade, a petty carnival? All those life decisions you are pondering about - they are being decided not by you. You is an imaginary figure on a carousel, pretending to steer the toy car.

If you say "and what" then you haven't done the step, and I can't do it for you.

[Dawid]

I often see that there really is no me. Like, all this stuff happens, I see myself complaining about shit etc. and knowing that its not "my" problem but I still complain. Like I say "damn man I have all this stuff to do blah blah blah" and at the same time I see "this is bullshit, this is just a character called Dawid" but still the complaining keeps on going.

Maybe I dont see it. Probably I dont. Dont know, thought that you would help me "make the step". I dont even know what it means and I dont know how to get from not seeing it to seeing it. Maybe Im doing something wrong or Im too dumb to get it. Thats why I posted here if I could figure it on my own I wouldnt be here. Or maybe I would but to help others, not to get it myself. if you've got some questions to ask me then ask, Ill give you my answers. Asking me "is there a YOU?! YOU!!?!??!?!?!?!" just doesnt help. Its like ruthless truth "just look man" me: " I cant see shit" "just look. focus" me: "I cant see it I dont get it, for real" "man you're not looking. look". me: "!#)%(*@)#%@#%!@#%"