confusion. someone willing to guide?

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

Good... Thank you.

That is one more thought. But still identifying with it. letting thoughts define me. thinking them as if they are mine

so... what happen, what are "you" expecting to happen, fireworks?, ;-)
seriously ... What are your expectations about the "enlightenment incident" now you expect? is that real?
the important thing is not to focus or wait for something to happen ... the important thing is to realize that there is no "I" in there ... the "mind" can play whatever it wants, thoughts can say anything; but something that must be accepted: you do not exist!... is an illusion!

or else the body would lie there all day long

Really?, why do not try that? just watching what happen, just look!.
do you think you are in control of anything?
try to control your thoughts, think on something without distractions for almost 10 minutes, can you?.
the mechanism is: thoughts... reaction... more thoughts about reactions and about environment... and.... more reactions about thoughts and feelings... and so on. that's all...
when it seems to decide something, how it happens that decision?, from a "me"? or is simply a mechanism?
is the "mind" in control?, there is not a simply a stream of thought without control?


with love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

Thank you.

Ok. I think I am expecting to be able to give myself and others new chances all the time. I want to stop identifying with feelings and thoughts. understand it once and for all, start to feel it on some level.
I want to stop being afraid. stop being afraid of feelings, thoughts or reality as it is. I want to face truth and to live in truth, to live in the world, be a part of the world. as i already am, i want to become aware of it. and strengthen it. so that it becomes natural, i want to breath it, like i have been breathing fear and separation. i want to breathe love acceptance and space.......... i want to stop grasping and start to use the tentacles. it may sound like a cliché.
my expectations are just expectations.
i will try too watch what happens. i easily fall into old tracks and loose attention but will try again. hope to build up some new routine.
i think i am in control of things. like my decisions are part of making things turn out in different ways then they would have, but of course that is a self centered way of looking at it, because everyone elses actions should be affecting my actions/reactions in the same way. and the same on every level. particles, nature, social levels and so on from the smallest to the biggest! and MY decisions! maybe the decisions are VERY powerful(!?) in the whole chain of things that happens, and the problem is to look at some of them as my decisions? it may seem irresponsible, like an easy way out, to say that there are no desicions that are mine, like every decision is the universe's decision, but in fact, maybe it is not! maybe it doesn't matter to me if it is my decision or yours. WOW. hmmm. it stetches the responsibility to something that includes everything. more like an easy way in and there is no way out. it is MY way of thinking of a ME that creates the possibility of someone getting out or in or using something to gain something... i have to examine this more, want to attach something. dont really understand anything right now.
but it feels good, like on the way!

i want to always be equal. is this just a part of growing up (not attached to age)? i wonder if people on the street know this. if my family knows it. how come it is never said out loud? it seem to be so good.

love!
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

thxs for the questions. good job

I think I am expecting to be able to give myself and others new chances all the time

New chances?, there is not chances all the time?, who knows what will happen, that's not always a new chance?

I want to stop identifying with feelings and thoughts

what is being identified?, and how?, those feelings and thoughts are you?
Is more difficult not to identify with the feelings, but the trick is to observe carefully, be aware of them, it is clear that if you watch them, then they are not the "I"; that is like your eye could observe directly the eye itself, if anything could directly observe "that which sees" then it is not "that which sees".

i will try too watch what happens. i easily fall into old tracks and loose attention but will try again. hope to build up some new routine.

might seem a paradox but accept what is... makes all things new... just look! nobody knows what will happen, still watching.

like every decision is the universe's decision,

why "every decision" might not be that way?, there is a decision anyway?, do you have a free will? are not your decisions (and worldwide) based on the past, in conditioning, external events, etc ... ? (recommend watching this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N6S9OidmNZM)

but in fact, maybe it is not! maybe it doesn't matter to me if it is my decision or yours.

is infinitely more important to know if there is "someone" making a decision

dont really understand anything right now.
but it feels good, like on the way!

YES!, I can see that that happens here too ;-)

i want to always be equal.

"YOU" do not exist!, which is equal to what?, when the "I" disappears (never was), then it is all one and the same

is this just a part of growing up (not attached to age)?

what is growing up? there is nothing to growing up

i wonder if people on the street know this.

who wants to know?
there is not other people!!!

if my family knows it. how come it is never said out loud?

what makes you think that your family knows about this?

it seem to be so good.

indeed it is!, but that is only a "state", feel good about to "realize" that, is a "state of mind".
What is really important, is to know, with absolute certainty, that there is no "I".

Best regards!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

Thanks for your reply!

Ok, it seams that there is not much to do but to sit back and watch things pass by.

what makes you think that your family knows about this?

Sometimes when I am hanging out with someone it feels like the communication can flow freely, and sometimes it get stucked.
That creates a thought of that some people know about this and some dont. but of course, if nobody is in anyway permanent then that does not say anything about the next time we meet and the moment I am thinking about will always already be gone.
But it seams to be patterns. Patterns in the bodies and the minds, patterns that creates rests of persons, even if they are illusions. I think that these patterns are confusing. maybe there can be patterns and still nobody behind.
Right now I feel totally identification with the body and the mind but that nothing is permanent. So like I do exist but never change, because it is always a new me. Like there is no development.
Thank you!
Love

Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

Ok, it seams that there is not much to do but to sit back and watch things pass by.

I don't thing so, and I don't feel so... true happiness is beyond the apparent "self".
You feel that you choose something? ok...
only notes as the process of choosing works ...
Can you observe? ... there is no "I" choosing ... is a mechanism
"you" can do a lot
you can try to actively observe if there is the "I" of which we speak.
and then we can see that is what "appears to be"
if it appears to be the body ... analyze,
look closely if you are the body, if you are the body then if you lose a part of it, such as an arm or a leg, you might think you've lost a part of the "I", do you feel so?, im sure the answers is not... right?
Despite you can vividly imagine the loss of a limb, usually maintained a belief in the "I" (the whole) in spite of having lost a part of the "I" (the limb)... Does that tell you anything?, It is not clear then... the illusion of that identification with the body?
In the case of "mind"
Is there really such a thing as mind?, has the mind a separate existence, as if it were a thing apart?, what makes the mind? what defines it? Is not the "mind" just a stream of thoughts?
so... to all this ... where are "you", the "Self", where is this "I" which apparently is so present?
Look when "you" walk, when "you" talk, when "you" grab something.
there is an "I" present and walking, talking, or taking anything?
where is the "I"?... is inside that body?, is in the brain? can you point that with your finger?
please answer the questions... are not rhetoric


Best regards!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

I do feel like I choose things. But I can't find the "I" in the body or the thoughts.

Is there really such a thing as mind?, has the mind a separate existence, as if it were a thing apart?, what makes the mind? what defines it? Is not the "mind" just a stream of thoughts?

Right now the mind is something that perceive information and think thoughts. There are patterns of reactions between the body and the mind. When something happens to the body, a sensation, the mind reacts (based on previous incidents) with resistance or attachment and that creates suffering. The mind cannot exist apart from the body. You do not need to think to have a mind. It is possible to just silently watch what happens without interrupting. Then the mind is quiet and then I do not get caught in myself. But when interacting with other people and things around, not just being passive, then a "me" easily shows up.
Do not really know how to get deeper from here...

Thank you again,
Love

Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

I do feel like I choose things.

yes... i know that, but... what is your opinion about what i said? about the video?
and what about to look the process of chose? there is an "I" choosing?... look carefully... where is "Toma" in that moment?

It is possible to just silently watch what happens without interrupting. Then the mind is quiet and then I do not get caught in myself

where is "Toma" when silently watch?, is not there?, "Toma" disappear?, how is that possible?
if "Toma" exist, then must be there always, what do you think?

You do not need to think to have a mind.

what is the mind?

Do not really know how to get deeper from here...

there is no place to go, there is nothing to do only look carefully if the "I" exist,
thinking is not the answer... the answer is looking

With love
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

what is your opinion about what i said? about the video?
and what about to look the process of chose? there is an "I" choosing?... look carefully... where is "Toma" in that moment?

Maybe there is no "I". It seams to be that way when I look for it. About the video, it was very interesting. maybe the process of choice is very chemical and scientific and predictable. I think it still feels like it is possible to act in a way that is not predetermined. I dont know how the responsibility comes in, because I do not really believe that there is an I anymore... It is a bit twisted right now.

where is "Toma" when silently watch?, is not there?, "Toma" disappear?, how is that possible? if "Toma" exist, then must be there always, what do you think?

Yes in a way "Toma" is there always. Always, forever, never changing, because only one moment at a time. Never two moments in a row, together. So "Toma" exists but there can be no judging or responsibility?

what is the mind?
Thoughts? And desire, I guess.

Love

Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

Maybe there is no "I". It seams to be that way when I look for it.

What is what exactly happens when you look for the "I", when you look carefully inside?
seems is not there? or definitely is not there?, because if it is the latter case then there is something in "you" who "want" to exist, is correct what I say?, there is a thought that says "must have" an "I"?, in that case, there's the question... Why?.
what if "YOU" do not exist?

I dont know how the responsibility comes in,

responsibility for who?.
If "you" kill "somebody" maybe "your" body will be put on jail until it dead or maybe in a hot chair, if "you" don't work... "you" don't eat, is there a responsibility? perhaps will be hunger... that is..... is a matter of perspective, the thoughts, the thinking... are creating a lot of "structures", of "beliefs", of "laws", of "must be's"...
are "good"? are "bad"? that is another game of "the mind".

Yes in a way "Toma" is there always

in what form?, always (while the body has life) there will be thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations ... but those things are "Toma"? or that things simply are?
there is also consciousness, (what "realize"). but that's "Toma"?.
there's a thought "Toma" is that... but it is just another thought.
look, it's true that "Toma" is all about?...
or are just a number of things put together and labeled "Toma"?... you are only a concept.

So "Toma" exists but there can be no judging or responsibility?

?. (don't understand)... what is the answer of "Toma" to that?

Thoughts? And desire, I guess.

no ... guess not... LOOK!... there is a mind?... what is a Mind? it's something physical like a desk, or the computer, or the monitor in front or there is another concept, another label?
the body exist... the thoughts exist, the sensations exist... "Toma" don't.


Love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

Thank you for your reply.

What is what exactly happens when you look for the "I", when you look carefully inside?

I start to Think about the future. About what I will do in the future, and where I will be. I start dreaming. And then I start thinking about the past. what has happened, thinking of what went right and what went wrong... Both in the future and the past, thinking about how other people look at me* (=my actoins in the past, what I have said and done, what they think about my actions in the futute, trying to fold all of that into a lump that is the predictable "toma" as the world knows it), how they look at me and think of me. how to make them understand and to help them and to change things so everything is more like I want it to be. then I start looking inside the body, feeling nthe body.. oh there it is pain, feel a little tired there, and so on. thinking about what to change, the future and the past. trying to make things go together and to understand what is happening here.
it seems like I start thinking a lot. and feeling tensions in the body.

seems is not there? or definitely is not there?, because if it is the latter case then there is something in "you" who "want" to exist, is correct what I say?

It seems it is not there. but I dont feel anything about it. I dont feel scared or sad. I just feel: ok, what to do next? even if there is no I, my body and mind seem to be very egoistic and craving for more good sensations. restless..

right now maybe a little less ashamed over myself (my body and mind), that is one good thing. less alone with my own troubles. not like I have to convince everybody. More like I want to have a place that I like and spread good energy, but I dont know how.

there is a thought that says "must have" an "I"?, in that case, there's the question... Why?.
what if "YOU" do not exist?

When I look right now it is ok, then everything is just being and all bodies and minds are just spinning around like electrones.

in what form?, always (while the body has life) there will be thoughts, feelings, emotions, sensations ... but those things are "Toma"? or that things simply are?
there is also consciousness, (what "realize"). but that's "Toma"?.
there's a thought "Toma" is that... but it is just another thought.
look, it's true that "Toma" is all about?...
or are just a number of things put together and labeled "Toma"?... you are only a concept.

Feel like my mind and body together creates something that is part of me, because I cannot let go of them. something that can never change or die, because it will not know if it stops. if it would be possible for me to get free from my body and mind then I would probably disappear but right now I am so involved with the feelings spinning around. I AM not the feelings, but they drag me along...

I look and there is a mind. it is a Construction of thoughts and old memories and new hope. in the middle of it I stand, stuck. wait a minute, i do not exist, how could they possibly stand in my way if there is no me? now there are only that Construction in my head, and no me. this feels like i am empty. now this feels like a mind game. like i am sitting here trying to trick myself. to feel better, to accept things as they are and not try to change anything, make anything different, change, better? what is this???
the mind is inside my head, I can feel it, how it is working. it is tensions and impulses inside the head. And it affects the whole body. it affects the respiration. it reacts to (and sometimes strengthen) pain or other sensations in the body. the mind is invisible pictures and silent sounds that I (my body??) see? and hear? and feel, but know is not real. the mind is my image of the world and other people. the mind is my image of me. and how I interact in the world. so the mind is my whole world. the whole World and me. but that is just a thought. but some thoughts are so long, they take so long time to change. they are so long that I cannot remember the time they started. and I think I am them, because like with my body, I do not know how to live without them.
maybe these thoughts are just a part of my body, trying to survive on this planet. maybe they are rests from what has happened, like scars. maybe I still do not exist.
interpreters long lasting sensations and thought as "me".

Love!
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

thanks!

I start to Think about the future.

All you can do with the future or the past is thinking "about" that.
and it is what we commonly do... neither (past or future) exist and for the future, nobody, nobody knows what will happen, and that to me is beautiful. I like to wait to see what tomorrow brings, no expectations.
The past is in the past, and no longer exists, but when "YOU" think there's an "I" then SEEMS to have an influence... and most of the time, if not always, it is all fake.
please focus in the question "what exactly happens when you look for the "I"",
I invite to "you" to see, to look! if can find an "I" somewhere!!

me* (=my actoins in the past

there are not a "me", the actions in the past are gone, they are not "you", they not define a "you", there was actions in the past and not longer exist.

then I start looking inside the body, feeling nthe body.. oh there it is pain, feel a little tired there

Ok!, what said that pain? what say that tiredness?

thinking about what to change, the future and the past

???... can you change something of that?

It seems it is not there. but I dont feel anything about it.

sure... why? because is not there... never was

even if there is no I, my body and mind seem to be very egoistic and craving for more good sensations. restless.

sure.. the incessant search for new sensations, of not being "boring", to have "something to do" is part of the mechanism that we have created.
The quest for enlightenment is part of it too.
but... who is feeling "boring"?, who is egoistic?, there are only thoughts about that.

right now maybe a little less ashamed over myself (my body and mind), that is one good thing

Sorry... is not a good thing, we are not here "to be better", to "feel better", or something like that, we are here to investigate, (with passion) if there is an "I", and no more of that.

More like I want to have a place that I like and spread good energy,

"you" are not going to be "enlightened", "you" will not have some energy to spread, "you" can have nothing!, even "your" clothes, not even "your" teeth, how can "you" possess something?, even if "you" eat something... that is not a "You" or part of "you".

then everything is just being and all bodies and minds are just spinning around like electrones.

Exactly... and purposeless... "our" purposes are not just another scam over the so-called mind.

Feel like my mind and body together creates something that is part of me, because I cannot let go of them.

ie your mind-body have decided to do something to you?, the body and the mind is NOT you, is A body and A "mind".
there is nothing to let go, the only "thing" to let go is an idea, a illusion, a believe exactly as believe in Santa or in the tooth fairy

i do not exist, how could they possibly stand in my way if there is no me? now there are only that Construction in my head, and no me.

that's exactly... that's all... there is a Construction in that head... a concept.... nothing more

the mind is inside my head, ....... and I think I am them, because like with my body, I do not know how to live without them.

do not worry!.... Life is happening without a "you", Life don't need nothing!
"you" don't live, the Life live in there, and then there are Life... only Life everywhere... thats beautiful

Love!
Jorge

[waterdog]

Hi!

The past is in the past, and no longer exists, but when "YOU" think there's an "I" then SEEMS to have an influence... and most of the time, if not always, it is all fake.

yes!

the pain and tiredness says: feel me! let go of me!
of course the future and past cannot be changed. I cannot change the past or the future, they do not exist and never will. oh, now I see something. because nothing has changed, it doesnt feel anything when I realize there is no I. when thinking of what we have been talking about (the body walking around, feeling like a body, and the mind and thoughts spinning) and then looking at this sentence

the mind is inside my head, ....... and I think I am them, because like with my body, I do not know how to live without them.

suddenly the words felt unfamiliar. like a body and some thoughts had created an I and then written that down.
then it was clear that there never was an I. but isnt that just another way of thinking of it? there are thoughts and a body. the mind and the body believes that they together create an I. or the mind and the body do not believe that they create an I. anyway there are just mind and a body. but if they believe they create an I, then there are an I. Because that becomes the reality to the mind and the body. that is why, I think, the body and mind is longing to get free from the I. Because they know that it doesnt have to be that way, that they created it and they have the power to destroy it. what do you say about this?

now I see that even if the mind creates a thought of an I, or the body feel like an I that to is just in real-time. it will pass as soon as it has arrived. when I know it it is already gone. it could never last. that is why there can not be something as an I. because there cannot be a line of things. there is just a dot! when I think there is an I, then there is a believe of an I and when letting go of that believe then there is no I! so it is like the mind and body can choose. then there are the question about the free will again....... ohhhhhhhhh :( the will... not sure if there can be a will if there are just thoughts and sensations!

sure.. the incessant search for new sensations, of not being "boring", to have "something to do" is part of the mechanism that we have created.
The quest for enlightenment is part of it too.
but... who is feeling "boring"?, who is egoistic?, there are only thoughts about that.

yes! there are no will. there is just a consciousness and thoughts and sensations, now when I look.
but there is only one body in wich it is possible to feel sensations and to explore with. that is always the same body (according to the thoughts of memory), even if it too do change all the time.

Love!
Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

Good job!

like a body and some thoughts had created an I and then written that down.

nothing has created nothing, the "I" do not exist... is an illusion... IN the illusion Seems that "I" do something

suddenly the words felt unfamiliar. like a body and some thoughts had created an I and then written that down.
then it was clear that there never was an I. but isnt that just another way of thinking of it? there are thoughts and a body. the mind and the body believes that they together create an I. or the mind and the body do not believe that they create an I. anyway there are just mind and a body. but if they believe they create an I, then there are an I. Because that becomes the reality to the mind and the body. that is why, I think, the body and mind is longing to get free from the I. Because they know that it doesnt have to be that way, that they created it and they have the power to destroy it. what do you say about this?

there is nothing, nothing in control, nothing have the power, you are not the body, nor the thoughts, nor the sensations or feelings... that things "are", an "I" do not exist... here is empty of an entity... only exist everything, sometimes there is a sensation of a "self", but is a sensation, just that.
when the words becoming unfamiliar, like is saying for someone else, is because is a "thing" saying, words leaving the mouth, not from a "you".
look at those hands... are they "yours" hands, or they are only hands?

but there is only one body in wich it is possible to feel sensations and to explore with.

the sensations happen, does not matter where, there is a sensation, there is a consciousness of that sensation nothing more of that.


...see something?... describes how it feels

with love!
Jorge

PD. thanks for bring to "this" the opportunity of unfold things

[waterdog]

Hi Jorge!

Thank YOU! (?) me? entity? thank it! thank!

look at those hands... are they "yours" hands, or they are only hands?

those hands... it is hands, i used to think they were my hands, because I could move them. but now when I look it seems to be like the thoughts move them, there is an idea and then they move. but the ideas does not come from inside, the body itself comes from "outside", it is made of the same stuff as everything, and changing all the time. like with the mind. when there is an idea, then something has started to boil, it does not boil direct from freezing, it gets hotter until it starts to evaporate. the first bubble can say "I am the one starting to boil", but it does not change anything.
hmmmm

the sensations happen, does not matter where, there is a sensation, there is a consciousness of that sensation nothing more of that.


...see something?... describes how it feels

seeing lots of bodies, different materials. feeling on the inside and the outside of one body, thoughts about moving that body and mind to explore more different places and bodies and minds (exploring this one body and mind) because it is the only place where it is possible to explore.
but that is thoughts.
now the feelings
now there is a feeling of community. feeling of innocence and inclusion.
no judging, only looking! at things. at myself the body I feel with, at the thoughts of an I and then the wants of being someone and then that body trying to move like someone and the voice speaking like someone and listening to other bodies sounds when they speak.
like under water! and things are connected :) haha
some time passes.... thinking around of other things..
then i see a doubt. it is a doubt. it is not an I. I see a thought of resistance: no no there is no I, please! the thought of an I, dont come back..... and those too are thoughts. there are thoughts of doubt and fear of that the future will be scary and that it will be separation again, but that is a feeling of fear. it is like being afraid of being afraid.

love!

Toma

[Jorge786]

Hi Toma!

really glad to read your post!

Thank YOU! (?) me? entity? thank it! thank!

hahahaha, thanks to life, thanks to this, thanks it !!!
for the moment, we must to agree to write with the false pronouns... like "we" were in existence! :)

Lets talk about a "doer", is there a "doer"?, is somebody who is doing things?
what thoughts come about the responsibility, about the free will?
is somebody in control of what happen?

but that is a feeling of fear. it is like being afraid of being afraid.

"who" is afraid of being afraid? there is not another thought?.
can not be simply an awareness of that feeling, or thinking there?
It may just be in the "presence" of those thoughts?... who is in presence... nobody... the "presence" i'm talk about simply exist...
so... stay in "presence" of that feelings, of that thoughts, now there is a knowledge of there is not "you"

lets talk about the body and "mind"
somehow the body and mind form an "I"?
if true ... In what way there is that "I"?,
Is it a concept?, Anything real?, Is something that actually exists?

There is a concept as a "University" but if you look carefully is just a set of things put together and labeled "University"... There are buildings, officials, students, books, structure, laws ... etc.. with all that together we "create" a "University"
but ... not just a concept?

please talk freely about what is happening there

Love!
Jorge