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[mark_tywharton]

By the way, it is my opinion that if in fact there is no such thing as a soul, then we are all just a bunch of biological machines and there is no real purpose for this life.

Meaning and purpose are stories that biological machines invent.

Life has an apparent and inherent universal intelligence but it isn't doing it for a reason.

Freedom is seeing that it just is.

Events happen but they happen for no-one.

Relationships between things are observable because eyes see.

There is no observer, only seeing happening.

There is no you which is separate from the seeing.

Just seeing.

Remember, this isn't true, it is an invitation to let go of an idea or notion which you grasp onto that keeps you from being free.

Freedom starts with no thing seeing itself as everything.

Can you find an "I" of "self" in this place?

[helio]

Hey Mark... I am sorry that it took me such a long time to answer, but classes started, and I have a full load, plus I am working part time, and I have an internship. Needless to say, life has been a little hectic lately. However, I want you to know that I do appreciate your time and attention to our conversations. With an open mind, I have been contemplating and meditating on the ideas and concepts you have kindly introduced. And, I will try to give you my perspective.

Meaning and purpose are stories that biological machines invent.

I agree. As you know from Landmark... we are meaning making machines... and life in deed is "meaningless, and it is meaningless that it is meaningless"

Life has an apparent and inherent universal intelligence but it isn't doing it for a reason.

I disagree. Left to natural forces, the law of caos reigns. Everything seems to be programmed to disintegrate and die, due to the law of entropy; nature tends to progress from order to disorder... but evolution defies this law. Consequently, life seems to have a reason to evolve and progress...

Freedom is seeing that it just is.

Freedom from what exactly?

Events happen but they happen for no-one.

So, it sounds like there is no soul in your explenation

Relationships between things are observable because eyes see.

Do these relationships exist when not observed? Now, eyes do not see... they absorb electrical input, which is then decoded by the brain, and it is the brain that gives the illusion of seeing.

There is no observer, only seeing happening.

From the biological point of view I described above, it would seem like you are right and there is no observer, but just chemical reactions, caused by energy, that produces "seeing" and there is no observer.

There is no you which is separate from the seeing. Just seeing.

Like I mentioned before, if we look at all these actions as just biological processes that happen automatically, there is no-one there, and it is just an illusion... and like I said... we are just a bag of flesh and bones with no purpose... a cosmic mutation of evolutionary energy.

Remember, this isn't true, it is an invitation to let go of an idea or notion which you grasp onto that keeps you from being free.

Free from what? If there is no "you" then how can "you" be free?

Freedom starts with no thing seeing itself as everything.

Wait, I am the one that has been telling you that "I AM" everything... now, seeing itself as everything implies a self... its-self... so if there is no self, which if I understand correctly, is what you have been trying to tell me all along... how can the no-self, see itself as everything?

Can you find an "I" of "self" in this place?

I would have to say yes... I find my soul and spirit in this place... it is very real and very present... but, it is not the identity that most think of as the self... it is much more than that... it is an energy. The same energy that is in everything, and it even has weight. I am not sure if you know, but when you die, at that exact moment, the body looses weight, and there is no explanation for it... Now, even tho I do believe I have a soul, I do not feel trapped, or without freedom... actually I feel like I am part of everything, and have a global/universal/cosmic awareness daily...it is very liberating and peaceful... and it is this universal energy, which I am part of... that I call God

[mark_tywharton]

You can quickly and intelligently pull the language used here apart and make it mean whatever you wish.

This isn't an argument for or against something that we are debating however, the language here is pointing towards something that you haven't seen.

What you are doing would be a bit like on being shown a sunset responding "ah yes but technically the light isn't coming from the sun, it is reflected light because the sun has gone below the horizon, so it isn't really a sunset is it?"

Stop doing that.

The key word was STARTS and there isn't a "no-self" because there isn't a self to negate in the same way there is nothing physical to negate when you look at a reflection.

Nothing ever implies a self unless you are caught in the illusion of implying one.

[quote="helio"]I find my soul and spirit in this place... [quote]

Run through the logic of that sentence please?

Which is the REAL you?

Nothing other analysis please, just explain that sentence.

[mark_tywharton]

You can quickly and intelligently pull the language used here apart and make it mean whatever you wish.

This isn't an argument for or against something that we are debating however, the language here is pointing towards something that you haven't seen.

What you are doing would be a bit like on being shown a sunset responding "ah yes but technically the light isn't coming from the sun, it is reflected light because the sun has gone below the horizon, so it isn't really a sunset is it?"

Stop doing that.

The key word was STARTS and there isn't a "no-self" because there isn't a self to negate in the same way there is nothing physical to negate when you look at a reflection.

Nothing ever implies a self unless you are caught in the illusion of implying one.

I find my soul and spirit in this place...

Run through the logic of that sentence please?

Which is the REAL you?

No other analysis please, just explain that sentence.

[helio]

Mark,

Language is used simply to explain things, and most of the time, the explanation is inadequate. It is like the fact that you do imply a self in most of your explanations, and then claim that there is not one. I have also asked you to explain it, and you do not seem to be able to do so. Consequently, you keep trying to make an argument, for ack o a better word, without any logic, or reason. I am tried to follow, and have explained, just as you asked, my experience, which most of the time dismiss using the inadequacy of language as the reason.

You have also asked me to look, and I have... I also transcended the ego (the socialized illusion of the self) when I realized that my past experiences do not mean what I thought and my identity was an illusion... then I transcended the biological self when I realized that my body and mind were just a series of biological and chemical reactions between atoms, which are actually nothing but space filled with energy, and the solidity of things are also an illusion... consequently, everything in the universe is energy... and it is this energy, that through my spiritual understanding, I call this universal energy God... and my soul is part of this energy... ... like a drop of water and the ocean... then it is when peace reigned and I engulfed the universe in one instant... mind you that this explanations is not all there is... for this is much more than words can say, but the inadequacy of these words might be able to give you an idea of the existence I experience.

The soul, my soul, recognizes itself in this place of peace and love....

"Wisdom is knowing I am nothing, love is knowing I am everything"

Now, if you can actually just try to explain, keeping in mind that fact that the explanation will not be adequate, the logical perspective you keep trying to point too... perhaps through reason I might be able to see, what you claim I have not...

[helio]

Hey Mark,

I realized that if the IAM label is eliminated, life remains...

[mark_tywharton]

Helio,

You talked about water and oceans. This explanation has probably outlived its usefulness, because it becomes a beautiful concept and what is being pointed to here is the exact opposite.

This is about destroying the imagination.

Here's a puzzle.

If Tom has three times as many apples as Susan and Susan has one-fourth as many as Joe, who has 4, how many
does Mary have if Mary has two more than Tom?

If Mary has five apples and I take two how many apples does Mary have?

Picture Tom? with his apples?

Can you see Susan? or Joe? and Mary? What about Mary? Can you imagine Mary standing there with her little basket of apples, like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz and her ruby slippers, so far away from Kansas?

And you? Can you picture you? Taking two apples?

That is all this is about. However that internal feeling, image, qualia, sense, vision of you presents itself, it is just imagination. Not your imagination either, because this is how you occur for yourself in thinking. It's just a game of smoke and mirrors. Nothing to see here.

When you say "the soul, my soul, recognises itself in this place of peace and love"

Does it really? as clearly as Mary or apples? or Dorothy, with her little dog?

You see, unlike the Wizard, there is nobody behind the curtain, only a curtain.

And what if a water droplet has a soul and then it merges with an ocean?

How many souls does an ocean have?

How many souls in a universe?

[mark_tywharton]

Helio,

You talked about water and oceans. This explanation has probably outlived its usefulness, because it becomes a beautiful concept and what is being pointed to here is the exact opposite.

This is about destroying the imagination.

Here's a puzzle.

If Tom has three times as many apples as Susan and Susan has one-fourth as many as Joe, who has 4, how many does Mary have if Mary has two more than Tom?

If Mary has five apples and you take two how many apples does Mary have?

Picture Tom? with his apples?

Can you see Susan? or Joe? and Mary? What about Mary? Can you imagine Mary standing there with her little basket of apples, like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz and her ruby slippers, so far away from Kansas?

And you? Can you picture you? Taking two apples?

That is all this is about. However that internal feeling, image, qualia, sense, vision of you presents itself, it is just imagination. Not your imagination either, because this is how you occur for yourself in thinking. It's just a game of smoke and mirrors. Nothing to see here.

When you say "the soul, my soul, recognises itself in this place of peace and love"

Does it really? as clearly as Mary or apples? or Dorothy, with her little dog?

You see, unlike the Wizard, there is nobody behind the curtain, only a curtain.

And what if a water droplet has a soul and then it merges with an ocean?

How many souls does an ocean have?

How many souls in a universe?

[helio]

So, where were we?.... sorry it took me so long to respond, but life sort of got in the way.... plus I had a talk with Ilona, who suggested I come back here and finish this...

[mark_tywharton]

Hey Helio, welcome back!

Yes, life, that does seem to happen ;/)

Okay in the simplest of terms make a report about experience...

Who, What, When, Where, Why and How does it happen?

Is there a separate "I, me or self"?

Thanks

[helio]

Hey Mark,

I started talking with Richard, and did not realize you had responded.

SInce the last conversation, there was a shift into what people call "evolutionary enlightenment" (a term I was not familiar with), but explains the experience. Basically the experience is systems within systems of a creative force that started BEFORE the Big Bang and continues, and all life forms are a product if this creative force. This creative force (for lack of a better word) has been called nothingness, emptiness, LIFE, God... and it is all there is. And, since IT is all there is, there is no separate self.

While this might sound theoretical, it is actually the experience of witnessing systems within a universal system, where creation is just happening

[mark_tywharton]

Beautiful concept ;/)

Sounds perfectly fine...

And how do you experience this?

Can you write a report.

[helio]

The experience is simple. Looking around systems become apparent. The wind blows and sways the tree, which causes the leaf to detach and fall through the air, which supports the flight of the bird flying by. While the rays from the Sun filter through moisture in the air, separating the light into the primary colors, which are reflected on the window. The same system can be seen throughout the planet. The hydrological cycle or the atmospheric cycle, which has an influence on wind patterns, and these influence the ocean currents, which cause the regional temperatures and are essential to the survival life on the planet. All these systems are interrelated.

The same system is evident in the body; running causes the release of heat, which triggers the sweat glands to increase the production of sweat to cool the body. This process creates a sense of thirst in order to replenish the water in the system, so that the organs continue to function. Once the energy stored in the body is reduced, a sensation of hunger surfaces. Looking at the body in the mirror, some characteristics of the parents is obvious. Parent's who have characteristics of their parents, and on it goes to the beginning of time, all linked through the successful transmission of DNA traits that helped the organism survive. However, it is obvious that the environment together with DNA determines any organism's function. The thoughts that come up are seen as a product of the brain, which unique's composition was also dictated by DNA and influenced by the environment.

Ultimately, it is all seen as a movie of life, but a movie that, while it appears to be seen by "someone" it is experienced by the same process that created it. It all is just happening. A flow of this evolutionary process, without an individual self, since it is just a system within a system related to all other systems in the universe.

I heard the second link you send, and I understand the premisses on which he based his argument, however, while what I am talking about seems similar to "evolutionary enlightenment" -which by the way it is the first time hear of it, but does seem to be a good name for it- there is a big difference; It is obvious that the flow of evolution created everything, and therefore, everything has the same beginning. Nothing appears nor disappears, it only changes form, and ultimately the whole remains the same. Nothing is separate from this force. The force is the only thing that is, and continues to change and create.

While some of this is speculation, the rest is clearly seen and experienced.

Cheers

[mark_tywharton]

This sounds very clear and it seems as if you are in a very different space from where this conversation left off?

How about the "I, me or self"?

Who, What is that?

Which link are you talking about? And when?

Was it Andrew Cohen?

Don't try and align with anyone else's stuff

What happens when you stop aligning with stuff?

Stop comparing? judging? relating?

Thanks

[helio]

How about the "I, me or self"? This is just a phenomena produced from this flow of evolution, but since all there is is this evolutionary force, there is nothing else.

Who, What is that?

Which link are you talking about? And when? Oh that was from a different post. One of the other guides sent me a link, and some how it ended up on this comment. Just disregard

Was it Andrew Cohen? Not sure who it was.

Don't try and align with anyone else's stuff. I never do.

What happens when you stop aligning with stuff? I don't. It is pure self inquiry that brings realizations and shifts. Otherwise, I've seen others get lost in intellectualizing concepts, with no real shifts

Stop comparing? judging? relating? What are you talking about?