For Spockycat

[Spockycat]

Hi Perry

Thank you for your last post. Sorry I haven't got back to you sooner but I have had a very busy couple of day. Your last question was interesting as was my response to it!

I looked at your post 4am in the morning as I had to check on one of the cats who was unwell. My initial response was a reluctance to say yes! I went back to bed and contemplated the question. I found the phasing of your question interesting “do you consider that you have seen through the illusion of self? “

On reflection I felt I had seen the self was illusionary, that whenever I looked for it, I could not find it. That the 'I' was something imputed onto the skandhas, but wasn't actually there in the skandhas, and certainly wasn't something out side of them. But somehow I felt that seeing the self as illusionary was not the same thing as seeing through the illusion of self.

I wrestled with this, trying to make sense of your question, contemplating the nature of the self and the skandas. Then from nowhere I remembered something Tsongkhapa had said. He describes two types in ignorance: learned and innate. It felt like I knew there wasn't an 'I' but hadn't seen there wasn't an 'I'.

This took my searching to a deeper level, still looking at the skandhas. Then something caught my attention in my mind. It was almost like I had seen something lurking in the darkest shadows of the mind, something subtle I almost missed. As it came into focus I saw that the 'I' was created by perception.

Everything went quiet followed by a rush of energy. It was almost like there was a cessation of perception. It felt as if a weight had been lifted. This was followed by crying, just crying, not for any reason. It was like the 'I' just wasn't there any more. Such a relief, such a sense of lightness.

This stayed with me until I feel back to sleep. Over the last couple of days my experience has been quite different, though I am sure it won't last!! It feels like the senses have come alive. At times it feels like I can fully experience them, as if for the first time. The depth of awareness of sounds and sights particularly has taken me back, they are just so rich. Just experiencing them without a sense of 'I' is so much more satisfying.

I am trying to keep coming back to the sense of openness and 'I'lessness when I have a few moments of space. It feels like this is the way it is meant to be. I will just keep open to this for as long as it happens.

I think that may have answered your question!!

I am very grateful for all your help in this so far. I said at the start I wasn't sure what to expect from
the process, but somehow I hadn't envisioned this! So I really do thank you for your time and input you have given me.

Best wishes

Stephen

[perrym]

Hi Stephen,

Sorry to hear about your sick cat ... but otherwise .... wonderful, wonderful, wonderful! I'm so happy for you!

Let's let things settle for a day or two, see if anything else comes up that you'd like to share, and if/when you feel inclined, you might like to see what you make of the traditional LU 'final questions'

best wishes,

Perry

[Spockycat]

Hi Perry

Yes things seemed to have settled down a bit now, so why don't I have a go at the 'final questions'.

Thanks

Stephen

[perrym]

Why not indeed :-)

You may well find it best to answer one or two at a time over a few days, otherwise it is rather a lot to work on at once!

Here they are!

Best wishes,

Perry
_______________________________________________________________________

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

[Spockycat]

Dear Perry

Here is the first of my answers:

Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

From my searches for an 'I', I can not find one. It just seems to be an illusion that as soon as I remember to look to see if the illusion is real, it will disappear. I can see there is a continuation of experiences to which a label of self or 'I' is sometimes useful to apply to, in order to process those experiences. But 'self' and 'I' are just labels. They can not be found to exist when searched for, either internally or externally.

The experience of 'I', has been with my for the whole of my life, and when distracted, or overly busy, still is! (That's most of the time!!) But as I can't find an 'I' in the present, there is no reason that it has existed in the past or will exist in the future. My 'normal' experience hasn't in a sense changed. It's just that I understand that experience for what it is: Just an experience, not experiences that 'I' am having.

So there is no 'I' and never has been!! Which is humbling when I reflect on things I have done in the name of 'I'.

I'll hopefully get the next answer to you tomorrow.

With thanks

Stephen

[Spockycat]

Hi Perry
Here is my answer to the second question

“Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now. “

It seems the easiest way to start to describe this is to say what happens when the 'I' starts to reassert itself after I have seen that is is illusionary.

So I start with just sense experience, just as it is, in the moment. Then, at some point, there is a reflection on the experience. Shortly afterwards it has changed from experience into 'my experience', and 'I' have had this experience or reflections on it. The experience is still there but there is another layer on top. Almost like a story about the experience. Over time the actual experience of the senses starts to take a back seat, and the story solidifies into something apparently real. It then diversifies into all sorts of different narratives with the 'I' at it's centre. It is only when I stop and check again if this 'I' is real do I see that it is not. It is just a story or an illusion.

A lot of the time this is a discursive process, but I have also seen that the 'I' establishes itself without thought. So I would describe it as being established as a higher aspect of perception. That perception perceives sense experience and then wrongly perceives an 'I' as the perceiver. In fact when looked into, there is just perception, no perceiver can be found. It feels to me as this sense of 'perceiver' is the illusionary self.

Hopefully I'll do another question tomorrow.

Thanks

Stephen

[perrym]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for your (wonderfully lucid) answers - I'm really enjoying them so far :-)

Perry

[Spockycat]

Hi Perry

Thank you for your supportive comments. OK question 3:

'How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.'

It feels a relief to see this! At least when I remember to look. I definitely have times when I am more lucid about the nature of the self and that there is not an 'I' to be found. These times feel much looser and richer. I am more in touch with my experience just as it is.

For example yesterday I was sitting on the swing seat in the garden, being aware of the sensations of the breath, of the sights and sound around me without having to add anything else too them. Experiencing them is enough, it now seems silly to add an extra 'thinking process' or even an 'I process' on top of them. That just dilutes the sensations.

Other times are still quite muddy and it is easy to loose sight of the illusionary nature of 'I'. At times, when I'm busy, I might start to get angry or frustrated about something. I have found I am asking the question 'Who is angry?' At which point the anger starts to unravel and a sense of perspective comes in. Previously it would have been much harder to spot the anger, and harder still to work with it in a constructive way.

To sum up it is not just that the 'I' has been seen through, but everything that is built on the 'I' is on much weaker foundations. This means there is a tendency for them to come tumbling down, leaving just the experience of what is actually happening.

Question 4
'What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? '

This is quite easy to answer. It was the question 'Do you consider that you have seen through the illusion of self?'

I don't think I have anything to add to what I wrote on the 6th of June about this question

Thanks Stephen

[Spockycat]

Hi Perry

Here is the answer to the next questions

'5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience. '

Firstly, I have to say the questions is slightly unclear, as the 'you' could mean specifically the 'I' or refer more generally to me as a psychophysical organism made up of the 5 Skandhas! But I will answer it the best I can.

Through my explorations with Liberation Unleashed, it has become clear most of what I do in my life are a result of habitual patterns. My morning routine, what I do at work, my 'likes' and 'dislikes' and so on are learned patterns of behaviour. In that sense most of the time I don't have to decide or control events. I found none of these needed an 'I' to control or do them.

There are times when I do make decisions. Starting Liberation Unleashed is an example. Also I noted some of the decisions I made while doing it. How the decisions are made are not as I thought they were before I started this. A month or so ago I would have said that 'I' made decisions. Instead I have observed that decisions are made without the need for an 'I' to make them. There is definitely an experience of volitional activity taking place. This in turn has some effect on the world either internally and/or externally. So this does 'make things happen'. That is not to say that 'I' make things happen.

To summarise, the 'I' is illusionary. As it doesn't actually exist then it can not, in or of itself, make decisions or exert control of things. Decisions are made, and control can be exerted to some extent. If this wasn't the case we would live in a deterministic world.

'6) Anything to add? '

I've got nothing to add in terms of the process. I would like to say how grateful I am to you for guiding me through the process. I am also very grateful to Ilona and Elena for setting up this web site.

Thanks again

Stephen

[perrym]

Hi Stephen,

Thanks for your answers - these questions give a good overview

To summarise, the 'I' is illusionary. As it doesn't actually exist then it can not, in or of itself, make decisions or exert control of things. Decisions are made, and control can be exerted to some extent. If this wasn't the case we would live in a deterministic world.

Will / control can be a biggie - it is often where the last sense of the reality of "self" lurks ... 'free will' is absolutely central to the delusion of self.

So what goes on when control is exerted? Can there be control without a controller? What is 'control' in direct experience?

Best wishes,

Perry

[Spockycat]

Hi Perry

Thanks for your response. I think there may be an issue with semantics in terms of control. It's not a word I would normally use, but it was part of question 5, so I felt I needed to reply in the terms the question was set.

The experience I have, in the terms I would use is: there is an experience of a volition to do something (or not do something!) such as not following an angry train of thoughts. This creates a causal relationship with the angry thoughts and some other thoughts arise in it place.

Or I receive a post from you and I may need to create some time to reflect on what you have written and to be able to answer your question. This takes a volition to make the space and another volition to reflect or answer the question. Upon these volitions I can engage in the process, as I am, writing this to you now. So again there is a causal relationship between the volition and me sitting at the computer writing this.

When I look at the volition, no 'I' can be found in it, just an experience of volition. There is also an experience of the volition having an effect on experiences that follows.

So one of the definitions of control is 'to exercise restraining or directing influence over'. In this sense it seems appropriate to say 'control can be exerted to some extent' as my experience is, a volition can have an effect on future experiences. That is not to say the volition is an 'I' or it was 'my' volition.

Hope that clarifies things a little?

Thanks

Stephen

[perrym]

Hi Stephen,

I think there may be an issue with semantics in terms of control. It's not a word I would normally use, but it was part of question 5, so I felt I needed to reply in the terms the question was set.

Yes, I know what you mean, sometimes not all of the questions quite "fit" - but the way you put it in your own terms makes complete sense .... actually this is rather a gem imho:

When I look at the volition, no 'I' can be found in it, just an experience of volition. There is also an experience of the volition having an effect on experiences that follows.

Let's see if any other guides have anything to add!

... will be back soon,

Very best wishes,

Perry

[perrym]

Hi Stephen,

Well, no questions or clarifications from other guides, so .... "our work here is done!"

I'll leave it a couple days before moving the thread into the 'read only' section, in case either of us has anything more to add - but if not, I'd just like to say - thanks for being such good company!

Perry