Looking for a guide

[Choki]

I like the way you say there is an intelligence at work which is much greater than thought, and that thinking gets in its way – that is so true! But we can see our thoughts, not be caught up in them, and know that we’re not our thoughts.

I’m reminded of something someone said recently – that we become a self through what we identify with, and we push away and keep outside of ourselves whatever we don’t want – but that if we were to accept all of that, there would be no inner, no outer, no self….

And yes, you’re right, in direct experience there is no ‘other’. All there is is experience, what is sensed by the six sense organs. It appears, in my mind, that there is an ‘other’, it appears that there is a computer in front of me that is solid. What is really there, in direct experience, is not bound by words, labels, concepts. There is an understanding of this, but…. I was talking to a Lama the other day, and I asked him – if someone is completely realised, and sees the true nature of all things, can they actually do things like walk through walls? And he said there was a high master who literally put his hand through a tower and created a huge gap, that had to be filled in with bricks. The Lama I was talking to said he himself had experienced everything dissolving into light, and I told him how once in the past I was doing some walking meditation on the grass and suddenly the grass dissolved into light – but almost immediately I had a fear of losing myself, and stopped the meditation, and the grass became green again!

Yes, we are told how the world is, we believe what we’ve been brought up to believe, and different cultures, different species, different people, even the same person at different times, wouldn’t see the same thing. It’s like the tale of the blind men and the elephant, they all touch different parts of the elephant and think it’s something different. None of them realise it’s an elephant.

And actually, although this world appears real, the dream world also appears real, so who can say which one is real? It may all be a projection of my mind, movement in the space of stillness, noise in the silence, form out of formlessness, everything manifesting out of nothing.

I think I’m probably not answering your questions – but taking my time… Yes, in meditation, there is recognition of hearing, seeing, thinking - there is just that.

[otterrivers]

what is real? is that answerable? can you really know anything except the experience that is now? the rest is a thought. some thoughts called "memory" and other thoughts of what "must be".

look at the reality of thoughts.

you can know in direct experience that something labeled 'thought' happens. so let's call that "real". how about the CONTENT of the thought? whether thinking of something like "table" or "mermaid"... you can find a match for the thought 'table' but is the table in thought real?

so even when dreaming, all you know is real is what is experienced in the moment right?
is it the same with "I" "Me" "Self"? can you find this in reality (outside of imagination, memory/thought)?

look for "myself" and tell me what you find. then look and see if any of these are truly a self or just parts (feeling of being, awareness, sensation, ideas/memories).
explore. play. have fun with it.

[otterrivers]

correction: when I said "even when dreaming, all you know is real is what is experienced in the moment " I meant you can only know that it is real that you are experiencing whatever is experienced.

[Choki]

No, exactly, that’s what I was meaning to say – that who can say what is real? And even what is experienced – so, again, in meditation I experienced pain but – on looking, really being with it, it dissolved into energy – no longer ‘me’ experiencing ‘pain’, just a flow of what is. Through looking, being with, not turning away, not trying to make something into something it’s not, I am no longer ‘perceiving’, looking through the lens of my own projections – from the past, my wishes for the future, how things ‘should’ be, etc. Labelling something makes it become something – without labels, without words, everything is just as it is. I can’t say that any of it actually exists, I don’t know, just as I don’t know that I really exist, but that what I have taken to be ‘me’ is just a collection of parts put together. And if I keep repeating the word ‘me’ it ceases to mean anything. Being with what is actually experienced in the here and now removes subject and object, past and future, accepting or rejecting.

[otterrivers]

<"and even what is experienced">

well you can know what you are experiencing right? your labels may not be accurate but if you put your hand in a fire you know you experience something very specific. mind can label it "Pain" "Burn" "Heat" whatever, but you know that there is the direct experience.
And yes, like you said, "no longer ‘me’ experiencing ‘pain’, just a flow of what is." isn't that what is always there before the labels?

so you clearly see that there never WAS a self outside of imagination, or do you feel you've gotten rid of self, or that there may still be some self hiding somewhere?

self referencing thoughts may remain or not, but what do they point to? something real or other thoughts?

[Choki]

Just to say I'm away for a couple of days and was at A & E tonight observing my experience... but I'm ok, I think! Will write more when I come back.

[otterrivers]

ok. I don't know what A&E is. yes please let me know when you get back. my best wishes whatever it is. :) <3

[Choki]

Ok, so A & E (you must call it something else in the States!) is Accident and Emergency. On Friday I was getting ready to go to work, in my kitchen, and something strange, that looked like a tadpole, appeared in front of me. It took a few seconds to realise it was inside my eye, not outside, and as I rubbed my eye it turned into a spidery thing and almost disappeared, but left a small piece which moved as I moved my eye. So – I had to get it checked out at the hospital,it could have been serious but luckily wasn’t.

Interesting… I was able to go to a trauma Constellations workshop at the weekend, and experienced being a flow of energy, representing different split off parts of people, no different from split off parts of myself – just energy. The self hasn’t been got rid of, it has been seen clearer that it is what has been imagined to exist, but it has no true reality of its own outside of the mind’s creation. Self referencing thoughts only point to other thoughts, caught up in the illusion of control.

[otterrivers]

oh. yes we just call it the "emergency room" here. glad you're ok. was it just something that got in your eye? what was it?

and as for being the flow of energy, is it seen now that this is what you are?

[Choki]

No, it was part of the eye itself, possibly a tiny amount of pigment that came off the retina to cause a floater - I was diagnosed with 'posterior vitreous detachment', and advised not to do any vigorous exercise for a few weeks (so, a rest from taekwondo...) just in case it caused a tear in the retina, which would be more serious.

Yes, it seems I am just a flow of energy, manifesting in different forms....

[otterrivers]

what a weird occurrence! I did not know that was possible. yes rest up! relax. appreciate the eye. :)

it was a bit of a trick question. just seeing how you would answer. what is it that says "I am this flow"?

what is it that identifies with the flow of energy?
I can agree that when speaking of it, it's hard not to say things like "I am" etc but is it believed?
the Buddhists call it no self (anatta) the hindus call it true self and they mean the same thing. how is this?

you have agreed there was never really a "myself" in reality outside of thought. can this thought "I am" really identify, or is there just a thought that there is identification?

Just play and explore these questions. this isn't a passive-aggressive spiritual assault hahaha.

[Choki]

Well, I might have known that it was a trick question! I didn't think it could be that simple! So, anyway, for what it's worth, here are my ramblings for tonight:

For me, I like the idea of ‘true Self’, but see no contradiction between this and the ‘no self’ of Buddhism. It is just what is, beyond any preconceptions, the unconditional.

When there is identification, when there is the thought of identification, there is separation, or apparent separation, which then brings about acceptance and rejection, judgment, good and bad, right and wrong. All that exists just is – who are we to choose and in so doing pretend to be ‘God’?

[otterrivers]

a very light, loving trick question, yes. :) <3 Better to ambush the mind than let it see what's coming and prepare haha.

when describing what you identify as "I am", you say there is a flow of energy. ok, but where is the "I" in the "I am"? I see only an energy flow there. see what I mean? even if you say "there is just this witnessing / awareness" what is witnessing the witness? what is aware of the awareness?

2) do you feel there has been a shift or change in life? how are things different from before?

3) how would you describe the beginning of this illusion of self existence? explain like you are telling a small child who had never heard of this type of talk.

[otterrivers]

(sometimes the answer to a question is not really an answer in the way we might think. any answer you give here must be in words which are always imperfect. the answer to the questions I ask is really not an answer, but a ...swimming with this flow. I will know from how you speak whether this is the case or not. and if you answer and I ask more questions maybe frustration will happen and that is also ok. just don't assume the thought 'it should be different' is true. what is there to be frustrated about, even if I was being really strict and unreasonable? there is no hurry. there is no pressure. there is nobody to be hurried or pressured. there's nothing to get and nobody to get it. How can I say to just swim with this flow if there is not 'one who is swimming or not'? this is the epic question. take it to heart. be it rather than answering it. there is no right answer. you are already the right answer. no need to prove or do anything. what is it that exists that can claim it anyway? I just felt this should be said and now it is. please answer the questions from my last post when you are available. love.)

[Choki]

Hi - I had read your previous post and looked at the questions, and yes, quite often when I read your questions i feel a bit 'stuck'! Thinking to myself....how to answer this one??? At the same time, something draws me in and I find myself writing. And I'm aware now that there's a lot of 'me' talk and you could come back and say 'who is it who's feeling stuck?' etc. and I'd feel stuck again trying to answer the question - but anyway.... just stuckness happening...

So, last night I saw a friend and we were talking about the difficulty of putting into words what is beyond words. The words aren't the experience, only the experience is the experience...

But anyway, I had been starting to compose an answer to your question 3. I thought, like doing exam questions, I'd start with the easiest one first! So....

As if talking to a small child…The illusion of self existence is like being separated from your mother, she’s disappeared and you don’t know when she’ll come back, if ever. You might be waiting forever. It’s horrible. How did this happen? Suddenly, time and space exist – this means that you are trying to get back to something you had before but you’ve sort of forgotten what it was you had, there is just some vague memory of everything being different and everything was ok but now it’s not, and you do all sort of things to make it better. You may try to please your teachers at school and get good grades so that you can get a good job, and have a nice life, and yet you still don’t feel really happy, there’s something missing, something you’re looking for and can’t find. The trouble is that somebody gave you a name, then they told you what was ‘wrong’ and what was ‘right’, and you learnt the difference between feeling happy and unhappy, so you’d learn what to reach for and what to push away, and you thought what happened was up to you – you learnt about power and control, and the illusion of separation was born.