Looking for Guide

[peterdan]

Hi Metta,

The ego/mind or false self in this dualistic life does fight the loss of identity. Ultimately there is no self as we know.

So how can "I" tell if "my" non-existent self is fighting the loss of identity in "my" case?

Ok, so this is where there seems to be confusion.
If there is no one "understanding" or "practicing", it gets confusing when it's suggested that letting go and acceptance are needed. Who (or what) does the letting go and accepting?
Is it the illusory self letting go of itself? - brings to mind the image of a snake eating it's own tail.

Consider the paradox of the absolute and the relative. Ego/mind seeks control, the self of illusion, though it is a very convincing illusion. In the absolute no one does.

It is understood what is meant by "In the absolute no one does."
But not understood what is meant by the 2 preceding sentences.
Still feels like there is confusion as to Who (or what) does the letting go and accepting?

Are you saying that in relative terms there IS actually a self doing the letting go and accepting but in absolute terms it's just another dance of awareness?
And by implication, what we are aiming for is to see things more from the absolute?
The old "drop/ripple in the ocean" metaphor?

Do you feel ready for the final questions?

Would like to see the response to this message before final questions if that's ok, as it feels like there is some doubts still.

Love & Light,
Peter.

[Metta777]

Hi Peterdan,

There is no rush for final questions if you feel you are not ready.

So how can "I" tell if "my" non-existent self is fighting the loss of identity in "my" case?

When you start selfing which causes suffering or anxiety. We are still living and must function in the day to day world, even if it is an illusion correct. We have to go to work, go to the bank, etc. In the relative world of illusion , thoughts arise, emotions arise and we have to deal. We have direct experiences in the Now moment, but we are energy,awareness, awareness is the only thing that is consistant. Your identity is a conglomeration of what was placed in your mind by society or conditioning of society, family and culture. Take that away and what is left? conscious awareness correct?

Are you saying that in relative terms there IS actually a self doing the letting go and accepting but in absolute terms it's just another dance of awareness?

No, I am saying we think there is when we fall back to selfing. As you pointed out on prior occasions that you have done. Everyone does it, it is normal. Eventually there is the consistent ability to look at things with a different perspective longer. There is a book out called, " The Impersonal life" it might be helpful to you.

If you still don't understand what is meant then perhaps we need to start over, I thought you understood what selfing meant. Thanks, Metta

[peterdan]

Hi Metta,

So just to clarify:
So who/what does the letting go/accepting?

Love & Light,
Peter.

[Metta777]

No One. :-)

[Metta777]

Hi Peterdan,

Having the understanding that ultimately there is no one does not preclude people from experiencing feelings, such as frustration, compassion, love, etc. We are living in a three D world at present, so experiencing all these things will continue. The difference is we are able to perceive that it is an illusion really happening to no one.

Does this knowledge of no self seem to say to you that there are no longer feelings or reactions to the environment? Death is a big issue for most people,many in some way relate what the death of the ego is to no self.
Perhaps I have said this before, But observing water is a great example, no matter what it is it is still water. It may be mist or ice, rain, dew drops reflecting the plants around it or the sun. It is soft and yet can wear away mountains, it can be hard if falling from a height onto it. It can be as small as a dew drop on a lady bug or it can be the ocean that has brought down the largest ships. Yet it is still just water. Yet if we were water and a rain drop, we just might not understand that there never was a separation, that we are a paradox, a rain drop and a vast ocean.
Love and Light, Metta

[Metta777]

Hi Peterdan,


The full range of emotional reactions arise in the organism after enlightenment......They are hardwired........but after the gate there is no place for them to attach and nobody to claim ownership. They arise and subside on the surface of a pristine undifferentiated compassion as awareness flows in, around and through a world that is now known to be one's own ultimate and only reality. I thought this a good explanation. :-) Metta

[peterdan]

Hi Metta,

Does this knowledge of no self seem to say to you that there are no longer feelings or reactions to the environment?

No, it's understood that feelings or reactions will occur.

Death is a big issue for most people,many in some way relate what the death of the ego is to no self.

Not really understanding what is meant here. Can you expand?

The full range of emotional reactions arise in the organism after enlightenment......They are hardwired........but after the gate there is no place for them to attach and nobody to claim ownership. They arise and subside on the surface of a pristine undifferentiated compassion as awareness flows in, around and through a world that is now known to be one's own ultimate and only reality. I thought this a good explanation. :-)

This is a good explanation. :-)
Unfortunately, it doesn't seem like "I" am quite there yet, in terms of there being "no place for emotional reactions to attach and nobody to claim ownership."

Feelings of confusion arising as to whether I have already been through the gate and just need to let things sink in.
Or if I'm still far away from the gate and need to see through more stuff or let go of stuff?

So... where to go from here?

Love & Light and Gratitude,
Peter.

[Metta777]

Hi Peterdan,

Death is a big issue for most people,many in some way relate what the death of the ego is to no self.

If we go for 40 years thinking that we are a person with an identity, a purpose, then there is a realization that it all has been an illusion many have described it like a death.

Awareness is living, life is living itself, there is seeing, smelling, tasting, hearing, touching. Isn't it action? In otherwards, the action of tasting, the action of hearing, is life. Go for a walk for 15 to 20 minutes, follow the instructions carefully. Walk slowly, feel each foot touching and raising from the ground. Listen for bird sounds, look at the clouds if any, stop, how does your body feel stopped? Feel your lungs expand. Start walking again, notice how your body feels walking. Are you telling yourself to breathe, your heart to beat, your ears to hear? what is doing it? Thoughts arise, look at that. Are you deciding to think or is it just happening? Is an identity needed to breathe, think, see, taste, feel? Isn't an identity just a conglomeration of experiences , beliefs and thoughts strung together? Why doesn't a baby have a sense of self until between 18 to 22 months of age? If it is your personality or identity would a baby come with it? when you think, who is examining the thoughts? Answer the questions as thoroughly as you can and as honestly as you can.

You have said there is no self, but then after the responses seem to set that on it's head.

http://youtu.be/N6S9OidmNZM Watch this and then give me your response.


I want direct answer to all the questions above, it is not what I think, it is what is being experienced Now.



Namaste, Metta

[peterdan]

Hi Metta,

If we go for 40 years thinking that we are a person with an identity, a purpose, then there is a realization that it all has been an illusion many have described it like a death.

Understood.

how does your body feel stopped?

There is a tingling sensation in the muscles that were working and some of the rest of the body.

Feel your lungs expand. Start walking again, notice how your body feels walking. Are you telling yourself to breathe, your heart to beat, your ears to hear?

No. They are automatic functions of the body.

what is doing it?

Nothing is doing it. It is just happening.

Thoughts arise, look at that. Are you deciding to think or is it just happening?

Thinking is just happening.

Is an identity needed to breathe, think, see, taste, feel?

No it isn't needed.

Isn't an identity just a conglomeration of experiences , beliefs and thoughts strung together?

Yes. It has been seen to be this.

Why doesn't a baby have a sense of self until between 18 to 22 months of age?

Can't say for sure. Can only guess it is that the brain is still developing and it's only after 18to 22 months that it develops a learned sense of self and separateness from it's mother. Maybe also to do with language kicking in and labeling things?

If it is your personality or identity would a baby come with it?

Not sure what you mean here. "I" know that that the personality develops as a child grows, based on it's genes, environment, experiences etc.

when you think, who is examining the thoughts?

No one is examining them - they are just occurring in awareness and some are consciously observed.

http://youtu.be/N6S9OidmNZM Watch this and then give me your response.

Yes, 'I' have seen this a few times before. My response is that thinking and choosing would seem to be happening faster than we are often aware of and being done without a self or controller.

Love & Light,
Peter.

[Metta777]

Hi Peterdan,

Not sure what you mean here. "I" know that that the personality develops as a child grows, based on it's genes, environment, experiences etc.

What is meant is that if a personality or identity was not a fabricated thing , it would be inherent in the baby at birth. My guess is like yours in that it is a combination of things that happen in awareness and that the baby has not had enough direct experiences to form a sense of self until then. So what does that say?
"I" is in quotations, interesting, so tell me who is this I ? Built from thought stories, experiences, illusion, conditioning, beliefs?

Life living itself is actions, perceptions and ongoing flow of experiences NOW, You cannot live the past or the future , correct? If that is true, then isn't there only now?

The response was before that there was no self. What is felt to be a block to that, if any? Is it felt that it is only an intellectual understanding, but not actually felt? I am trying to get a sense of where you are at now.

Peace, Metta

[peterdan]

Hi Metta,

What is meant is that if a personality or identity was not a fabricated thing , it would be inherent in the baby at birth. My guess is like yours in that it is a combination of things that happen in awareness and that the baby has not had enough direct experiences to form a sense of self until then. So what does that say?

It would seem to say that it is a learned/conditioned thing.

"I" is in quotations, interesting, so tell me who is this I ? Built from thought stories, experiences, illusion, conditioning, beliefs?

The "I" is in quotation marks as it is known that there is no "I" who is the owner of the knowledge but it just seemed easier to write this way rather than try and find some way to write without using an I.
Perhaps a better way would have been: It is seen (by awareness in awareness) that the personality develops....

Life living itself is actions, perceptions and ongoing flow of experiences NOW, You cannot live the past or the future , correct? If that is true, then isn't there only now?

It is correct that it is not possible to live in the past or the future - only thought can go there.
There is only Now.

The response was before that there was no self. What is felt to be a block to that, if any? Is it felt that it is only an intellectual understanding, but not actually felt? I am trying to get a sense of where you are at now.

It would seem that there was confusion about receiving the suggestion to "let go and accept" while seeing that there was no one doing other actions like understanding or the practicing. This led to a "mind boggle" which took some time to sort out.
It is seen now that there is simply the thought to "suggest letting go and acceptance" arising in consciousness. The suggestion is written in a message on this site.
That suggestion is read by the consciousness associated with the body that is called Peter and further thoughts arise in consciousness.
Letting go and acceptance either occur or don't. But there is no "self" controlling this. It just happens based on thoughts arising in awareness which again are not controlled by a self.
It took a while to see this.

Can't really tell if it is only an intellectual understanding. At times it feels like it felt also if that makes any sense?
There was doubt arising as to whether it was only intellectual due to the mind boggle of the previous thing mentioned.

Not sure there is a block, simply an observation that the knowing of the illusory self and it's implications seem to get forgotten easily when some form of human drama arises and then the sense of a separate self seems to easily reappear. Maybe it's just a matter of practice and these events arise to give the opportunity to practice
seeing and seeing again through the illusion, until it is automatic.

Love & Light,
Peter.

[Metta777]

Hi Peterdan,

I can see where that might be confusing. Ultimately, there is no one. But we don't let go of our humanity and compassion even when there is no one. Our body and brain are hardwired to feel, organize, think and suffer even.
Life is a miracle, a paradox. On the one hand we see the void and on the other empty/full is the truth.I hope I am not confusing you further.
Like on a tv screen, we are watching a movie, we get involved with the characters suffering, the injustice in the movie, we might even find ourselves outraged at poor guy whose dog, wife and truck are gone ,whatever. Or the love of his life dies and we find ourselves tearing up in this theater. We know it's a movie, but we still feel.
If the expectation is that suddenly we will be in control of our emotions all the time when involved in a drama, NOPE! No one there to control the emotions, they happen as they happen. This is what I meant with letting go of the thought or the thought story that we would no longer have drama after we became enlightened. It is a process that has to ripen. Even if all is illusion, I think I can safely say that usually there is more peace, things are taken less personally because there is the understanding that there is nothing really there for the emotions to attach too. No identity to suffer, just awareness and life living itself. Love and Light, Metta

[peterdan]

Hi Metta,

Life is a miracle, a paradox. On the one hand we see the void and on the other empty/full is the truth.I hope I am not confusing you further.

No, it's not confusing me further. It has been seen that life is paradoxical in nature.

Like on a tv screen, we are watching a movie, we get involved with the characters suffering, the injustice in the movie, we might even find ourselves outraged at poor guy whose dog, wife and truck are gone ,whatever. Or the love of his life dies and we find ourselves tearing up in this theater. We know it's a movie, but we still feel.

Agreed.

If the expectation is that suddenly we will be in control of our emotions all the time when involved in a drama, NOPE! No one there to control the emotions, they happen as they happen. This is what I meant with letting go of the thought or the thought story that we would no longer have drama after we became enlightened. It is a process that has to ripen.

Understood. I've heard the ripening process described as like when one moves to a new city and to get home a Sat Nav is needed. But as you spend more time in the city you get more used to finding your way back home without it.
It seemed like I was getting lost a lot. Much gratitude is felt as this dialogue has been a helpful reminder of the way home!

Even if all is illusion, I think I can safely say that usually there is more peace, things are taken less personally because there is the understanding that there is nothing really there for the emotions to attach too. No identity to suffer, just awareness and life living itself.

It seems like this is gradually happening...

Love, Light & Gratitude,
Peter.

[Metta777]

Hi Peter,

Even if there is no I or self, there is still action/reaction, the 5 sense streams are there, thoughts are there, and a tremendous opportunity for freedom. Just being in the now, no anxiety, no worry. There will still be thoughts stories, beliefs, but what can we do with those in the now moment?

When you get to your home after work, what is the first thing that is done after entering?

Any questions or thoughts?

Peace and Light, Metta

[peterdan]

Hi Metta

Even if there is no I or self, there is still action/reaction, the 5 sense streams are there, thoughts are there, and a tremendous opportunity for freedom. Just being in the now, no anxiety, no worry. There will still be thoughts stories, beliefs, but what can we do with those in the now moment?

Nothing can be done with them other than observing and allowing them to be, without trying to resist.

When you get to your home after work, what is the first thing that is done after entering?

Lights are turned on, shoes taken off, bathroom used.

Any questions or thoughts?

None seem to be arising right now.

Love, Light and Gratitude,
Peter