Looking to Start with Meta777 as my Guide

[Look4light]

Hi Meta,

As per your instructions, I have started this new thread. Hopefully we can unravel the "I" once and for all time.

-Kent

[Metta777]

Hi Kent,

This thread is fine. So, there is an assumption then that you read the disclaimer and are fine with that. Also the agreement to communicate daily. There is an understanding that I ask the questions and you answer as fully and honestly as you can. it is not about teaching, but pointing in the direction that will enable the person guided to see. Let me know a little more about yourself and what the expectations are for the process. Do you mind letting me know who was with you in the process before? Thanks, Metta

[Look4light]

Hi Metta,

First of all, thanks for being my guide!

My previous guide was s-p-a-c-e.

There is an understanding that I ask the questions and you answer as fully and honestly as you can

I believe that I like this. I definitely got off topic previously with my former guide and that was my fault. I did however ask questions of him occasionally only because I did not know whether our thread would continue on a timely basis. Perhaps that was just a false perception on my part. I think it is fair to say that my previous guide did not seem married to the idea of communication on a daily basis at least not after we got well into it with a number of posts behind us. I think that I was more married to that idea. Again it was just my perception. John did a lot for me.

As far as more about myself, you already know my age and location. I am married and have a daughter who is 25. Normally I can't email this much and post in one day but I have the day off of work today. I like to paint, wood carve/wood sculpture and sketch. I also like to kayak and do day hikes. As I said, I have been a searcher for a long time. I have been Buddhist for several years, studied Course in Miracles, Shambala, and sat with many non-dual teachers, a few very famous ones. I have read lots of spiritual books including "Gateless Gatecrashers". The only thing I attend somewhat regularly right now is I go to a meditation class run by a woman who is a former Zen monk. It is strictly meditation and in the past I have incorporated the looking at the I (suggested by my former guide) into some of these meditations. I still go on some day retreats or Satsangs with some teachers from time to time.

After all of the seeking that I have done, and the way things ended with my last guide, the inclination is to just let things drop as far as expectations. But honestly, I do have two expectations: to see directly more often and to drop the illusion of myself.

All for now,
-Kent

[Metta777]

Hi Kent,

Well, there is no one famous here. :-) lol, in fact no one is here. Your welcome.
Starting off simple, is there a self? If yes, what is the rationale? So this work has been ongoing and the thought story is that you are unable to drop self. Hmmm, who is dropping who?

Namaste, Metta

[Look4light]

Hi Metta,

Starting off simple, is there a self? If yes, what is the rationale? So this work has been ongoing and the thought story is that you are unable to drop self.

I don't totally know. That said, the best rationale for the existence of a self is the collection theory which by the way was my insistence of asking about this to my last guide (after some serious looking for the location of the self) got me into trouble. But you asked. This theory goes like this: there is a body. There is a mind. There probably is a spirit. Put all of these together and slap the label Kent on them and the parts put together creates something greater than the sum of the parts. in other words, something happens when this collection comes together and it is unique just like when your parts are together, she is unique.

By the way, I like the icon you are using.

Hmmm, who is dropping who?

This gets more problematic to answer. Because it starts to break apart. I would say the mind inside the conglomeration called Kent is. The one that insists on complexity. The one who insists on layers...

Got to go to work,

-Kent

[Metta777]

Hello Kent,

There probably is a spirit. Put all of these together and slap the label Kent on them and the parts put together creates something greater than the sum of the parts. in other words, something happens when this collection comes together and it is unique just like when your parts are together, she is unique.

For the sake of clarity we can leave out the probabilities and theories for now. Granted they are fun, but we have a specific goal in mind right now. That goal is to see if there is a self or fixed identity. There is no sense of self til about 18 to 22 months of age, then something happens. At birth there is no identity there or sense of self. There is awareness. By this we can see that a self wasn't something we arrived with and it had to be acquired. How was it acquired, we had direct experiences in the now moment, we were conditioned and taught by the environment around about labels, emotions,feelings, how and what we should think. Everything is second hand. Can you name anything that you came with that made you Kent?

Isn't kent an illusion created by conditioning, plus scripting by the environment, culture, family, etc.? If not, can you tell me why?

The one who insists on layers...

Who insists on layers and why are they relevant? Layers of what? Illusion?


Thanks, about the icon.

Regards, Metta

[Look4light]

Hi Metta,

Everything is second hand. Can you name anything that you came with that made you Kent?

Unique body, unique expression from this body, slightly unique perceptions, maybe unique awareness.

That goal is to see if there is a self or fixed identity

There is confusion here about a fixed identity. Does a self have to exist that is fixed or can an "I" exist that changes? I know you said that you are asking the questions so no need to answer but it is a distinction that I am confused about. I will give you that myself is referred to as I when this one was ten and at 60 as well. So yes, the same body, but one that changes, the same mind but one that changes ect. and who knows about the spirit or soul?

Isn't kent an illusion created by conditioning, plus scripting by the environment, culture, family, etc.? If not, can you tell me why?

Lots of Kent is I grant you but people who raise multiple children always say how different one child is from another. Perhaps there is confusion about the distinction between the person and the "I" here. Also, see above answer.

Who insists on layers and why are they relevant? Layers of what? Illusion?

What came to me was there was protection going on. Probably the Ego mind protecting through layers of story or as you said, illusion. Hey but it's the only illusions I've got. : )

Thanks,

-Kent

[Metta777]

Hi Kent,

Unique body, unique expression from this body, slightly unique perceptions, maybe unique awareness.

Boy,you are really unique. lol. A baby is a blank slate, except for the physical genetic variations. There is no sense of self whatever until between 18 to 22 months of age. There is nothing unique about awareness, birds and dogs have it with no sense of self. Awareness/consciousness. People have approx 60 thousand thoughts a day, they are not even aware of all of these. Thoughts just arise, then a chain of events occur. Emotions attach to the thoughts, there is a conceptual overlay built upon awareness. The body dies, awareness does not. 6th grade science says that energy can not be destroyed ,it only changes form. There isn't any thought that was not thought before, no labels that were not taught, language, ideas, concepts all taught. You did not arrive with language, ideas , values, etc.

There is confusion here about a fixed identity. Does a self have to exist that is fixed or can an "I" exist that changes? I know you said that you are asking the questions so no need to answer but it is a distinction that I am confused about. I will give you that myself is referred to as I when this one was ten and at 60 as well. So yes, the same body, but one that changes, the same mind but one that changes ect. and who knows about the spirit or soul?

No I, no doer, no decider, no thinker. Perhaps this link will help. If you think there is an I deciding anything, pinpoint the time for me that a decision was made.

http://youtu.be/N6S9OidmNZM

Lots of Kent is I grant you but people who raise multiple children always say how different one child is from another. Perhaps there is confusion about the distinction between the person and the "I" here. Also, see above answer.

Yes, each child is conditioned to some degree differently, he has different direct experiences with which to conceptualize who he is. Parents behave somewhat differently with a second child then the first. but again, is that inherent or learned. Our brains are like computers or labeling machines.


Awareness is not the body is it? do you have complete control over your thoughts? What makes the awareness yours? Can consciousness be owned? Is there a me,mine, in awareness? Or is it a taught concept? Are you your thoughts? If you think so, then who looks at them to decide that? Try to answer after some investigation and think about each question thoroughly.

Regards , Metta

[Look4light]

Hi Metta,

The utube video is a bit of a shocker, oooh. I am still absorbing that.

The explanation of multiple children in a family (how they are different) that a second child is treated differently than a first child ect. works for me up to a point. It does not account for the child prodigies that come into the world, like a Beethoven unless you are claiming that Beethoven's gifts were just a result of conditioning but that seems a bit of a stretch or at least difficult to fathom. Conditioning played a part but it is hard for my mind to say it was even the major player there.

Awareness is not the body is it? do you have complete control over your thoughts? What makes the awareness yours? Can consciousness be owned? Is there a me,mine, in awareness? Or is it a taught concept? Are you your thoughts? If you think so, then who looks at them to decide that? Try to answer after some investigation and think about each question thoroughly.

No, awareness is not the body.
No, I do not have complete control over my thoughts.
What makes the awareness mine? It is not mine but perceptions are probably (slightly) unique based on many factors such as conditioning, mood, physicality, memory but if you are talking about pure awareness, I don't have an answer for you.
Consciousness I don't think can be owned (just rented or leased : ) )
Awareness is aware of a person labeled Kent and when the me, mine filter comes on, it kind of mostly ruins the experience of awareness. I am in a foggy area now because I don't know whether awareness can be called an experience.
No I am not my thoughts but my thoughts may be part of me whoever or whomever me is.

My lunch ended, all for now.

Thanks,

-Kent

[Metta777]

Hi Kent,

The explanation of multiple children in a family (how they are different) that a second child is treated differently than a first child ect. works for me up to a point. It does not account for the child prodigies that come into the world, like a Beethoven unless you are claiming that Beethoven's gifts were just a result of conditioning but that seems a bit of a stretch or at least difficult to fathom. Conditioning played a part but it is hard for my mind to say it was even the major player there.

No , I think it was mentioned earlier about genetics playing a strong role. In any case, if there is no self, do all the specifics matter over all?

I don't know whether awareness can be called an experience.

No, but who is there to know or not know. The past is dead, it is merely squiggles on the flesh of your brain that have recorded the now moments. Every moment is a Now, moment, as each is experienced and dies as the flow goes along. The future does not really exist, except as a projected thought concept. Usually based on what has already been experienced. I had a friend in NYC, who envisioned herself on vacation, the family had saved for sometime for it. She was on the way to pick up her child from day school and someone threw a rock off an overpass above the highway. she died at the scene. We all envision a future, but isn't it more to give a sense of comfort then reality? It is really only a " thought concept". Thoughts are just that and nothing more. Beliefs are a string of thoughts that form a concept and relational chains of thoughts. However, is any of it reality in the absolute?

So is there control? Or decisions and again can the point or time of a decision be made. It all happens lightening quick, conditioning kicks in and it seems as if there is a you that decides.

I like the water analogy, there is the ocean, then water can change form, become steam, rain, ice,mist, dewdrops. But whatever it changes into, it is still water, it is never separate. Are we separate? If everything is energy, and we are appearances in energy, couldn't it be just like water? Couldn't there be only consciousness/awareness however appearances manifest?

Love and peace, Metta

[Look4light]

Hi Metta,

So is there control? Or decisions and again can the point or time of a decision be made. It all happens lightening quick, conditioning kicks in and it seems as if there is a you that decides.

There does not seem to be lots of control but it seems that in most cases, general directions can be charted. If one studies to be a nurse for instance, and applies oneself, most of the time that person will end up as a nurse. Is that some kind of control? I don't know. Did that person already have it decided that they were going to be nurse? Maybe you are talking about something else. Then there is the conditioning aspect. We are all conditioned to one degree or another and perhaps the conditioning dictates just about everything.

I like the water analogy, there is the ocean, then water can change form, become steam, rain, ice,mist, dewdrops. But whatever it changes into, it is still water, it is never separate. Are we separate? If everything is energy, and we are appearances in energy, couldn't it be just like water? Couldn't there be only consciousness/awareness however appearances manifest?

The devils advocate side of me says how is this unlike the collection theory I put to you a few days ago as we cannot prove it... However, I am getting a little exhausted though challenging these kinds of things. It is almost getting a little painful and I can feel some sadness there.
I just love this analogy as well and I have not heard it before. It does make so much sense.

I have a really jammed day and evening so I don't have as much time to spend on this today.

Thanks so much,

-Kent

[Metta777]

Hi Kent,

Stay with the sadness, there is something there, to learn about that. The tiredness too seems to be a common reaction, especially perhaps when the mind self feels threatened. Or the ego. I think we are getting somewhere with this, but perhaps it is sad to see lifelong beliefs go to the side. These other links might be helpful too, it makes the point of no separation, yet manifestation. The video's are free on the site. Don't know if you are familar with him.

http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/watch

http://www.magiceye.com/faq_example.htm , it works if you follow the instructions. Easier with a laptop though, lol.

Is there a self Kent? Peace and Light, Metta

[Look4light]

Hi Metta,

Writing this on my I-phone at our cabin. Looking at the sadness I seem to have a bit of a mental block. What I do see is like I have been doing it wrong thinking there is this controller of situations. Of course, you will probably say that there is no i to get it wrong. What is coming through is that there has been projection on my part when what needed to take place is more taking in. Now the projection is getting more & more painful or uncomfortable because painful may or may not be strong a word for it
Is there a self? If there is it is getting weaker

So somehow this sadness seems to be tied up in looking at all the projection I have done

Peace to you,
Kent

[Metta777]

Hi Kent,

There is no wrong, it is just the way it happened and now it is happening differently. Projection happens, life happens, then things keep moving. Even when we see that there is no self, we don't leave our humanity behind. There is still emotions, perceptions and joy and sadness. When we see that there is just life living itself and it is all one, eventually peace comes and the light is there, love is there. Eckhart Tolle speaks of a pain body we all have, the mental projections and memories of pain, but there is no past, not in reality and the future is just a projection.But life living itself now can be joyful, letting go of the thought stories, realizing that it was an illusion can be freeing. Just let the pain be there, it has a message. Life is a paradox, there is this void, but it is full of life.

One other analogy that I thought helpful, when we go to the movies and see the big white screen, then it lights up and images appear, we know the white screen is really all there is there. We see the characters in the movie, they lose people, they win battles, they love and cry. Looking at the movie we know they are not real, yet there is a response, there is a thrill with the victory, sadness with loss, bliss with love. Then the movie is over and there is the white screen again. It all seemed so real. The feelings and emotions touched our perceptions. Awareness is there. the light that is there doesn't die, it just changes form and goes on. Look around and delight in what is, the cabin, the smell of the woods, the water, hear the wind in the leaves or pine branches, it is beautiful.

Love and Peace, Metta

[Look4light]

Hi Metta,

There is no wrong, it is just the way it happened and now it is happening differently. Projection happens, life happens, then things keep moving. Even when we see that there is no self, we don't leave our humanity behind. There is still emotions, perceptions and joy and sadness. When we see that there is just life living itself and it is all one, eventually peace comes and the light is there, love is there. Eckhart Tolle speaks of a pain body we all have, the mental projections and memories of pain, but there is no past, not in reality and the future is just a projection.But life living itself now can be joyful, letting go of the thought stories, realizing that it was an illusion can be freeing. Just let the pain be there, it has a message. Life is a paradox, there is this void, but it is full of life.

Thanks, it seems like very good advice. Just got back to Portland. Spent the better part of a day tiling a shower, then a three hour drive so am a bit exhausted now.

cabin, the smell of the woods, the water, hear the wind in the leaves or pine branches, it is beautiful.

Yes, "in (the State of) Washington, green does zen cartwheels" so said Tom Robbins and so it was with the thousands of new shoots coming out.

I think you are right, I need to look at the pain (body), be with it for awhile.

Love,

-Kent