Ready to dive in...

[ixturtle]

funny-- have checked here a couple times a day the last few days, but seem to think you need to post for me to respond. but the process is mine and it seems to serve the process to keep engaging. (note: zero pressure from this end-- anything offered at any time is a gift, including if you decided to move on). reading my last post, gate seemed so within reach. today has been challenging in a variety of ways; "not doing" it as you say just puts me at war with reality. so giving it free reign without the weight in that sense is a new option-- remembering as often as i can to watch the show, to welcome the unfolding. still pretty caught up though. i guess if there's no real gate then proximity doesn't matter, but at the moment it feels thousands of miles away.

[vinceschubert]

Tell me, how (what) will be different when you are 'awakened' ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

ah ha-- yes, that question again...

new answer, so i'm glad you asked it. i've dropped a lot of that projection (mostly the oneness bit), but there's a few lingering bits.

i just imagine that "awakened" would mean that there would be a visceral knowing (as opposed to an intellectual one) that this whole meatsack identity is a story and thus, even when "caught up" in thoughts and feelings, there would be some sense that it's just conditioning playing itself out, nothing personal, and thus there would be less resistance to the experience, more wonder and amusement.

doesn't sound like much relative to my once flashy neon version, but it still feels like i can't own the experience (of course, there would be no "i" to own the experience but in any case, it doesn't feel like that description is pointing to what's here). i suppose there's a wee less resistance and there's lots of wonder and amusement as long as "personal" doesn't get threatened, and there is even a bit more awareness of the resistance as conditioning when it does get threatened, but there's no visceral shift in experience-- and i imagine that there would be no question whether that shift in perspective had occurred.

[vinceschubert]

Are there moments of "visceral knowing" ?

peace & love

v

[ixturtle]

was on the road again but am back--

neither a definitive yes or a definitive no appears.

but if pushed, arising answer is no. which is a story of course, so underneath that story i accept that awareness is all there is, but that too lives in story land.

friend told me the other day that all my "chakras were clear but for a little weakness on the feminine side of the 5th and a giant, decisive, irreconcilable "NO" at the 7th." not sure what that has to do with anything, but story or no, it struck me as related to this story here.

way back when, YOUR story was that the only way to fail was to give up. no intention to do so... but if you're ready to move on, i totally get it.

[vinceschubert]

Do you have experience of "visceral knowing" ? or does it only exist in conceptland.

it struck me as related to this story here.

Being "struck" like that, is a good indication that it it so. Ask the question; "How are they related ?" and grab the first thing that comes to mind.

a giant, decisive, irreconcilable "NO"

Nothing is irreconcilable. nothing.

..to give up. no intention to do so...

good.

but if you're ready to move on,

That's not something i choose.

love

[ixturtle]

Do you have experience of "visceral knowing" ?

Yes. There is a sound (feeling, images too) that appears when fingers type. Meatsack recognizes these sensory experiences as they arise as "true" beyond concept. This recognition mind is labeling "visceral knowing."

or does it only exist in conceptland.

"Visceral Knowing" only exists in conceptland. But it points to experience of the meatsack vs. experience in conceptland.

"How are they (a 7th chakra "no" and 32 pages of LU merrygoround) related ?"

they are related because meatsack's mind is ultimately not interested, willing to, and/or able to give up control no matter how much dancing around and poking about it does.

Nothing is irreconcilable. nothing.

deep bow.

[vinceschubert]

mind is ultimately not interested, willing to, and/or able to give up control

Can you describe from experiencing, just how this control works ?
Is it actual or apparent control ?
Whatever it is, why would it change ?

vince

[ixturtle]

What fun-- we get to go 'round THIS mulberry bush again! :-)

Is it actual or apparent control ?

Mind sends signals to body to act. Based on the video you recommended, it seems that this signal happens before the mind makes a "conscious" decision to act. Presumably both the signal to act and the "decision" are a function of conditioning. Thus the autonomous actor "with control" is just for show-- it's more like a puppet for conditioning.

But this is all story...

Can you describe from experiencing, just how this control works ?

Eyes read question above; question is processed according to all other info/patterns-- we label this "thinking". Fingers type thoughts describing this process. Sleepiness arises derailing the fingers, eyes close briefly. The thought, "gotta finish this before class" arises-- then, more typing.

Is this control? Doesn't look like it... If not, what is it that this mind is "saying NO" to? To lose something it doesn't have is no big deal. So if not control, what? Identity? Perhaps this mind's conditioning believes that the only way to avoid pain, approach reward and attach to others (the three driving forces of the reptilian, mammalian and monkey/neo-cortex brains, respectively) and thus be "calm, content and connected" is to "be someone special." (Writing those last two words has some emotional punch to it, BTW.) In some sense this same motivation lurks underneath this LU endeavor, among other motivations of course. Yet the LU endeavor undermines the aim of "specialness"-- thus the merry-go-round / mental cluster-f**k.

But we're back in story land.

Whatever it is, why would it change ?

Hmmm... I suppose from the brain's point of view, it would relax this strategy (and all the stories that support and confound it) were it to "see" that being "nobody" and "allowing experience to arise as is" was a better strategy for achieving the "calm, content, connected" state.

[vinceschubert]

to go 'round THIS mulberry bush again! :-)

It only looks like the same bush...

Thus the autonomous actor "with control" is just for show-- it's more like a puppet for conditioning.
But this is all story...

When you say that it is all story, you imply that it is the conclusion of thought.
Can you see anywhere in your life where actual control exists ?

is to "be someone special." (Writing those last two words has some emotional punch to it, BTW.) In some sense this same motivation lurks underneath this LU endeavor, among other motivations of course. Yet the LU endeavor undermines the aim of "specialness"

Both being "special" and LU undermining this, are story.
What is it to be "someone special" ?
Is it just a label ?
Is it a label that enables a unique 'feeling' towards ix ?
Does it change behavior, to have it or lose it ?
Everybody is 'special', in that the whole world exists in them.
Nobody is 'special' in that everybody's specialness is the same.

I suppose from the brain's point of view, it would relax this strategy (and all the stories that support and confound it) were it to "see" that being "nobody" and "allowing experience to arise as is" was a better strategy for achieving the "calm, content, connected" state.

This sounds like a (good) deduction, with a little aha mixed in.
Has there been a moment when this was current experiencing ?

love

[ixturtle]

Can you see anywhere in your life where actual control exists ?

lots of things "feel" like control, but if you peel the onion back to the birth of the thought that led to the action, you're left empty handed. once again we land in territory that conflicts a bit with other inputs in my life, namely that we can recondition the brain through conscious effort and intention. the brain science community backs this up. i guess the onion there is what's behind the "effort and intention"? Just more conditioning...

What is it to be "someone special" ?
Is it just a label ?
Is it a label that enables a unique 'feeling' towards ix ?
Does it change behavior, to have it or lose it ?

"Someone special" is a label that generates a feeling associated with contentment and connection. I would say the label does change behavior, raising/lowering confidence and/or sense of ease within a setting/group.

Has there been a moment when this was current experiencing ?

When mind quiets enough to "allow experience to arise as is", recognition that that's "enough" certainly lands me in a moment of "calm, content, connected". "Being nobody" seems foreign in experience though

Everybody is 'special', in that the whole world exists in them.

Any chance you could unravel this a bit more for me?

[vinceschubert]

I would say the label does change behavior,

..and if we burrow down a little, we come to the qualities that belief engenders in the label. ..and still a little further down the transfer of those qualities to the self. The identification with them.
So "special" may turn out to be the loom, upon which the story of R is woven.

Everybody is 'special', in that the whole world exists in them.

Any chance you could unravel this a bit more for me?

Given that every brain responds to the sensory input that it receives in a unique way, and then every bit of conditioning any mind/body has undergone is also absolutely unique, then it is easy to see how every person 'inhabits' a unique world. How 'special' is that ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

every bit of conditioning any mind/body has undergone is also absolutely unique, then it is easy to see how every person 'inhabits' a unique world.

yes, easy to see. was wondering if you were getting at something more, but this feels intuitive.

So "special" may turn out to be the loom

still mulling this over, even if mulling isn't really the way in...

do seem to be seeing much of what is arising through the meta-lens of "ahh.. conditioning interprets experience directing response."

also feel that bit about the brain relaxing into nobody when it really sees the futility of being somebody is a lighted doorway.

traveling (again!)... but in a new way perhaps.
peace to you.

[vinceschubert]

So "special" may turn out to be the loom
..still mulling this over,

any aha from the mulling ?

v

[ixturtle]

Not so much in the way of ahas. Have been on the road again but about to land for a short spell. Seeking energy has dissipated of late-- just the occasional checking in to see what can be softened and the occasional noticing of conditioning in action. Some big relationship dynamics/decisions afoot and I feel content to just allow the unfolding without much fretting.

The "special" loom isn't activated much out here-- easier to retreat / move into hermit mode. But there's an inner call to shine/expand/fly that -- while it risks activating the loom-- feels more like a natural full expression of this organism. That call makes "here" feel like a compromise. Content for here to be here until it isn't, but the question is: is a nobody's desire to fly all BS (which since it is expressed as story it must be)?