Requesting a guide

[truthseeker]

hi Sarah,

So you are in the river always? Have you ever been out of it? If so what makes/made you not a part of it? Look.

Slight hesitation as the metaphor may have run its course, but it is the I that has is the boundary that walls off from the rest of creation. That is why even though not out of it, also not feeling a part of it.

Do you have the expectation of losing ‘I’ completely?

No. and yes. No, because there is a survival function to having I. Yes because there may be moments where I am/is forgotten. So complete loss can happen, just not all the time.

How can something that is not there become something? Look.

It can't.

Is it possible to not allow it to be? Can you control that? Can you force that? See what doesn’t ‘allow’ it to be. What is that that doesn’t allow?

That is what I am banging my head against the wall trying to get through. Fear has not been coming up. I don't think I have overcome or seen through it. I kind of would like to. get that head on confrontation and face it. No, it hides. it is insidious. Frustration. Why am I frustrated? - been trying to see that. A sense of treading water. knowing i am close, but just feeling the last rung is hard to grasp. Apathy. Everything seems to not allow it. Oddly, looking for what to write here, and pondering the words and feelings, there was an overwhelming peace and stillness.

And does this ‘I’ really exist? Can this ‘I’ control or do or get closer? Look.

No. It is not real. Thoughts are things, they are not my thoughts. They do their job. "I" cannot get closer. I cannot coexist with the knowledge that I does not exist. "I" cannot find or realize that truth, nor control.

Thank you,
Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

No. and yes. No, because there is a survival function to having I. Yes because there may be moments where I am/is forgotten. So complete loss can happen, just not all the time.

Yes.

That is what I am banging my head against the wall trying to get through. Fear has not been coming up. I don't think I have overcome or seen through it. I kind of would like to. get that head on confrontation and face it. No, it hides. it is insidious. Frustration. Why am I frustrated? - been trying to see that. A sense of treading water. knowing i am close, but just feeling the last rung is hard to grasp. Apathy. Everything seems to not allow it. Oddly, looking for what to write here, and pondering the words and feelings, there was an overwhelming peace and stillness.

‘You’ is frustrated. ‘I’ is frustrated. ‘I’ is banging its head. ‘I’ thinks its close. ‘I’ doesn’t allow.
So what is ‘I’? Look. This is your answer from yesterday! Look below. Watch the frustration - see what it is. Watch the banging of the head - see it for what it is.

No. It is not real. Thoughts are things, they are not my thoughts. They do their job. "I" cannot get closer. I cannot coexist with the knowledge that I does not exist. "I" cannot find or realize that truth, nor control.

Careful with the head banging! Love Sarah xx

[truthseeker]

Hello Sarah,

Apathy. Everything seems to not allow it. Oddly, looking for what to write here, and pondering the words and feelings, there was an overwhelming peace and stillness.

‘You’ is frustrated. ‘I’ is frustrated. ‘I’ is banging its head. ‘I’ thinks its close. ‘I’ doesn’t allow.
So what is ‘I’? Look. This is your answer from yesterday! Look below. Watch the frustration - see what it is. Watch the banging of the head - see it for what it is.

Going back to this. Again, reading over it and thinking about it, getting that same profound feeling of peace. There has been the hunt for fear. Trying to find it and confront it. In my case, maybe that is frustration. As it is chased the peace comes. The banging of the head is my resistance. The fear is not terror. The fear comes to me as frustration. The fear I am wasting my time, chasing in circles, getting nowhere. Failing. I could go on with the negatives that flash up, but there is no need.

I will look further into this.


Much gratitude for your patience and kindness,
Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

No. and yes. No, because there is a survival function to having I. Yes because there may be moments where I am/is forgotten. So complete loss can happen, just not all the time.

How do you feel now after the shift? Do you feel that you have seen but that it comes and goes? Or do you feel you haven’t ‘seen’ because you don’t feel like that now? Do you still feel a ‘you’ feeling, a ‘me-ness’? Do you have an expectation that there is one fixed place and you remain in it forever all bliss like? Do you have an expectation that habits and conditioning will disappear completely upon awakening? What are your expectations of this state?

Going back to this. Again, reading over it and thinking about it, getting that same profound feeling of peace. There has been the hunt for fear. Trying to find it and confront it. In my case, maybe that is frustration. As it is chased the peace comes. The banging of the head is my resistance. The fear is not terror. The fear comes to me as frustration. The fear I am wasting my time, chasing in circles, getting nowhere. Failing. I could go on with the negatives that flash up, but there is no need.

What is resisting other than thoughts of resistance? What is frustration other than thoughts? What is chasing circles other than thoughts going in circles? What is failing other than thoughts and stories of failure? What is wasting of time other than thoughts relating a story of time wasting? What is getting nowhere other than thoughts and a story of going nowhere? Are ‘you’ thoughts? Can you stop thoughts? Can you control thoughts?
Look at what the thoughts say. Watch them like clouds passing in the sky. See what happens when watching happens.
Love Sarah xx

[truthseeker]

Hello Sarah,

How do you feel now after the shift? Do you feel that you have seen but that it comes and goes? Or do you feel you haven’t ‘seen’ because you don’t feel like that now? Do you still feel a ‘you’ feeling, a ‘me-ness’? Do you have an expectation that there is one fixed place and you remain in it forever all bliss like? Do you have an expectation that habits and conditioning will disappear completely upon awakening? What are your expectations of this state?

After the shit? I know i have seen. Ironically, there have been other times, college days, drugs, where I experienced oneness in various incarnations. That is what set me on this path almost 20 years ago. Knowing there was something bigger. And then it fades away over time. sometimes longer, sometimes shorter. Still leaving the mark, but becoming distant like a dream until it is just a memory. And we know what the past is ;-). But at least i knew even if i didn't feel it at the time it was still real.

This time it was different. I was not even done with my first drink. There was not any significant chemical alteration of consciousness. This was something that could become again. I have not been there now for almost a week. I was expecting (first mistake) to be able to live there. Set up a forwarding address and become a new resident. What I have been finding is bringing my awareness into my situations of stress, anxiety, happiness, feeling hot cold or hungry, just being... this all reminds me of the state. Reminds me what really is. Feels like a shadow of the immersive experience, but - to use the allegory of the cave - not boring shadows, now someone has their hands before the projector. Making rabbit, and dog shadows. Seeing the game, but not quite getting the joke yet.

What is resisting other than thoughts of resistance? What is frustration other than thoughts? What is chasing circles other than thoughts going in circles? What is failing other than thoughts and stories of failure? What is wasting of time other than thoughts relating a story of time wasting? What is getting nowhere other than thoughts and a story of going nowhere? Are ‘you’ thoughts? Can you stop thoughts? Can you control thoughts?
Look at what the thoughts say. Watch them like clouds passing in the sky. See what happens when watching happens.

The reason i don't talk much about meditation is I am the monkey mind they write about. Or so i have always felt. Much as thoughts are cherished in Western culture, and given shorter shrift in meditative traditions, I have been conditioned. "My" thoughts are fast, precise, spot on, penetrating... they are also non-stop. I believe the phrase would be "too clever for one's own good". Hence the circles, games and chasing. Control is an illusion. I tried the Eastern approach. I can't stop the thoughts. I cannot control them (although observationally every chemical i ingest from alcohol to caffeine to others) has a profound effect on the frequency, intensity and direction of them. The nothing that i am cannot control them. Choices made can.You are right in all of these questions. All of these feelings are projections of outcomes that I then experience as present reality and become the resultant outcomes without them happening.

Since the thoughts cannot be stopped or controlled, observation of them like clouds would be glorious. Thank you.

It my seem an odd question, but as I am not a very accomplished mediator, and my understanding of the rules of the forum is not to change too much of life - think it is ok if i take up some meditation?


Apologies for the meandering. Again, endless gratitude for your assistance, Much love,

Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

This time it was different. I was not even done with my first drink. There was not any significant chemical alteration of consciousness. This was something that could become again. I have not been there now for almost a week. I was expecting (first mistake) to be able to live there. Set up a forwarding address and become a new resident. What I have been finding is bringing my awareness into my situations of stress, anxiety, happiness, feeling hot cold or hungry, just being... this all reminds me of the state. Reminds me what really is. Feels like a shadow of the immersive experience, but - to use the allegory of the cave - not boring shadows, now someone has their hands before the projector. Making rabbit, and dog shadows. Seeing the game, but not quite getting the joke yet.

What do you think the joke is? Be clear on your expectations of what you think SEEing is e.g. permanent bliss. Do you expect this SEEing to be it – there – you are done for good – that’s it? Or is SEEing the start of something else? Do you expect permanent anything given what you have told me already? Do you still feel you are not ‘there’? Or could it be you are ‘there’ already and mind is just telling you otherwise? You really do need to sit and LOOK! No thinking about this, just watch what mind says and pay attention.

It my seem an odd question, but as I am not a very accomplished mediator, and my understanding of the rules of the forum is not to change too much of life - think it is ok if i take up some meditation?

Is this because ‘you’ wants to ‘do’ something? Meditation can be seen as doing to the mind. Mind wants to fix and do. Just watch the thoughts – watch what mind wants, whether it be wanting, doing, frustrating, head banging whatever. Each thought is a cloud in your mind – watch it pass across your sky.
When you stare out the window do you wish to hang onto the clouds? Do you wish to grip the clouds and not let them go? Or do you just let the clouds be? When you are frustrated do you wish to grip the frustration and not let it go?
Love Sarah xx

[truthseeker]

Dear Sarah,
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I confess to not getting to this until tonight. I have not been able to put the time I like to into preparing for the reply.
Once thing I have observed the past few days is that stress, anxiety, anger... All the things that normally would draw me into themselves have been the potent reminders that there is no me. They bring me back to this work and reality.

What do you think the joke is? Be clear on your expectations of what you think SEEing is e.g. permanent bliss. Do you expect this SEEing to be it – there – you are done for good – that’s it? Or is SEEing the start of something else? Do you expect permanent anything given what you have told me already? Do you still feel you are not ‘there’? Or could it be you are ‘there’ already and mind is just telling you otherwise? You really do need to sit and LOOK! No thinking about this, just watch what mind says and pay attention.

The joke? not 100% clear. I have gotten it in my college years briefly. Never tried to put it into words. Best impression it is that we take it all so seriously and it is really nothing.
As for SEEing. Not permanent. Expectations... (We know what fun they are), were kind of like a light switch. Thought it would turn on, and everything would be different. Still have not returned to the same state I had at lunch last week. I am ok with that. I know it is not far away nor hard to get to. Permanent? probably not. Whether I am 'there' or not, it seems to be much easier to cross into that state of being. As stated previously, when corresponding with you, there is a tendency to "shift".

When you stare out the window do you wish to hang onto the clouds? Do you wish to grip the clouds and not let them go? Or do you just let the clouds be? When you are frustrated do you wish to grip the frustration and not let it go?

Good analogy. I think i am going to watch the clouds in my mind for a bit. Se what strange and interesting shapes they make. Just letting it be, and enjoying the show. My frustration? wow. the relationship with it is getting interesting. Examining it has been novel. Not sure if I have learned anything, but now i am aware there is something to learn from it.

Thank you,
Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

I confess to not getting to this until tonight. I have not been able to put the time I like to into preparing for the reply.

Please don’t prepare. Look. This process isn’t for me. You are doing it for yourself. If you don’t look you only don’t look for yourself. ‘I’ am not ‘here’. How do you feel about that?

Once thing I have observed the past few days is that stress, anxiety, anger... All the things that normally would draw me into themselves have been the potent reminders that there is no me. They bring me back to this work and reality.

How does this feel? How do you experience this?

Still have not returned to the same state I had at lunch last week. I am ok with that. I know it is not far away nor hard to get to.

Are you sure here? Look and see if this is a new expectation.

Permanent? probably not. Whether I am 'there' or not, it seems to be much easier to cross into that state of being. As stated previously, when corresponding with you, there is a tendency to "shift".

In what way? Thinking or looking?
I think i am going to watch the clouds in my mind for a bit. Se what strange and interesting shapes they make. Just letting it be, and enjoying the show. My frustration? wow. the relationship with it is getting interesting. Examining it has been novel. Not sure if I have learned anything, but now i am aware there is something to learn from it.
Yes – just look.
Love Sarah xx

[truthseeker]

Hello Sarah,

Please don’t prepare. Look. This process isn’t for me. You are doing it for yourself. If you don’t look you only don’t look for yourself. ‘I’ am not ‘here’. How do you feel about that?

I am ok with it. There was not enough time, I felt guilt since I know we are both working for "me", but knew that circumstances limited what could be done.

Once thing I have observed the past few days is that stress, anxiety, anger... All the things that normally would draw me into themselves have been the potent reminders that there is no me. They bring me back to this work and reality.

How does this feel? How do you experience this?

Due to the intensity of the experience, there is this bell that goes of, basically saying - "hey - what's all the fuss?" and that brings me back to this work, and awareness and perspective. And, of course, who is experiencing all of this?

Are you sure here? Look and see if this is a new expectation.

Less of an expectation, and more surrendering to the process. There is a knowing, and being that has happened. Whether it is what I started out looking for, there is no answer to that. If it is where this will end up, again an unknown. It may have been a step in the process of unfolding. Not a new expectation.

In what way? Thinking or looking?

In terms of the "shifting" there is currently a thinking aspect involved. If "I" am steering this ship, and decide to hand over the wheel, there are thoughts. This entire process begins with thoughts. Thinking, currently, is still dominant. But then the awareness of the thoughts kicks in (usually egged on by that thought) and the looking starts. Seems circular. the whole thing is a slipknot.

Thank you,
Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

Due to the intensity of the experience, there is this bell that goes of, basically saying - "hey - what's all the fuss?" and that brings me back to this work, and awareness and perspective. And, of course, who is experiencing all of this?

And do you find a ‘who’ who is experiencing this? Or just experiencing?

Less of an expectation, and more surrendering to the process. There is a knowing, and being that has happened. Whether it is what I started out looking for, there is no answer to that. If it is where this will end up, again an unknown. It may have been a step in the process of unfolding. Not a new expectation.

And how is it to ‘not’ know? How does it feel to have it unfold? How about control? Do you control anything – anywhere – ever?

In terms of the "shifting" there is currently a thinking aspect involved. If "I" am steering this ship, and decide to hand over the wheel, there are thoughts. This entire process begins with thoughts. Thinking, currently, is still dominant. But then the awareness of the thoughts kicks in (usually egged on by that thought) and the looking starts. Seems circular. the whole thing is a slipknot.

OK. Look at this again – is there thinking first with doing after - or is there doing first with thoughts coming in after with ‘look what Ive done…’ Look at automatic pilot – when you drive and you know you weren’t doing it, look at anything where ‘you’ are off thinking somewhere else but body does just fine without you or thoughts are quiet and body just flows. Have ‘you’ ever been in charge? Have thoughts or mind ever been in charge? How would it feel to know that ‘you’ are not in control? Would it change what got done?
Love Sarah xx

[truthseeker]

Hello Sarah,

Unfortunately I have not been able to construct a reply yet. I will have one later in the day.

Thank you,
Chris

[Sarah7]

Thats fine, we can talk tomorrow after you have had a chance to look. OK.
Sarah xx

[truthseeker]

Hi Sarah,

And do you find a ‘who’ who is experiencing this? Or just experiencing?

The "right" answer is just experiencing. Habitually there is still a draw to who, and that who is I. When allowing it to happen, and taking that step back out of the drama there is just the experience.

And how is it to ‘not’ know? How does it feel to have it unfold? How about control? Do you control anything – anywhere – ever?

It is liberating to not know. It is opening up all possibilities allowing it to unfold. There is wonder, and newness in allowing. Control? an illusion. I have always enjoyed watching big thunderstorms, hurricanes... because they are reminders that control is an illusion. There is still the challenge of having that reality percolate to the deepest levels of being, Surrendering completely. It is strange, because surrender is either there or not, it is not a halfway thing. Kind of like faith. One either has it, or not. There is no middle ground - even as i tell you I am in the middle ground.

OK. Look at this again – is there thinking first with doing after - or is there doing first with thoughts coming in after with ‘look what Ive done…’ Look at automatic pilot – when you drive and you know you weren’t doing it, look at anything where ‘you’ are off thinking somewhere else but body does just fine without you or thoughts are quiet and body just flows. Have ‘you’ ever been in charge? Have thoughts or mind ever been in charge? How would it feel to know that ‘you’ are not in control? Would it change what got done?

Thoughts and mind have never been in charge, I know that now intellectually. Still the impressions that it needs to percolate deeper. I love the driving analogy. There have been periods on long drives where "i" wasn't there for 30 minutes and then I was like - oh wow, how did i get here? Knowing and accepting and surrendering to me not being in control? LIBERATION! it would not change what gets done. It would not change anything except there would be the freedom to let go of the tension that is holding on trying to keep everything in perfect order.

Thank you,
Chris

[Sarah7]

Hi Chris

The "right" answer is just experiencing. Habitually there is still a draw to who, and that who is I. When allowing it to happen, and taking that step back out of the drama there is just the experience.

And does this happen? Is there an allowance there? Is the allowing happening?

Are you still expecting ‘I’ to disappear?

It is liberating to not know. It is opening up all possibilities allowing it to unfold. There is wonder, and newness in allowing. Control? an illusion. I have always enjoyed watching big thunderstorms, hurricanes... because they are reminders that control is an illusion. There is still the challenge of having that reality percolate to the deepest levels of being, Surrendering completely. It is strange, because surrender is either there or not, it is not a halfway thing. Kind of like faith. One either has it, or not. There is no middle ground - even as i tell you I am in the middle ground.

Is this happening?

Thoughts and mind have never been in charge, I know that now intellectually. Still the impressions that it needs to percolate deeper.

What needs to percolate deeper?

I love the driving analogy. There have been periods on long drives where "i" wasn't there for 30 minutes and then I was like - oh wow, how did i get here? Knowing and accepting and surrendering to me not being in control? LIBERATION! it would not change what gets done. It would not change anything except there would be the freedom to let go of the tension that is holding on trying to keep everything in perfect order.

So if it happens whilst driving – where else does it happen? Do you control the happening or does it JUST happen? What can ‘you’ a thought, hold onto anything?????
Love Sarah xx

[truthseeker]

Hi Sarah,

This may sounds strange, and overly simplistic, but do you have any advice or one who seems to have trouble looking? It is the simplest thing, but the analyzing, labeling... seem to complicate it every time. You tell me to just look. Then there is the catch 22, i try to look, but in doing so it seems the looking becomes tainted. Like I had said earlier with the fear, and now with the frustration, as i try to hunt them down, they disappear like smoke.

Habitually there is still a draw to who, and that who is I. When allowing it to happen, and taking that step back out of the drama there is just the experience.
And does this happen? Is there an allowance there? Is the allowing happening?

Are you still expecting ‘I’ to disappear?

The experience happens. It is generally fleeting and short lived. There is the question if it is really momentarily being in the moment, or a relaxation response from shifting perspective. I would say the allowing, in the sense that 'i' am becoming disentangled from the moment' appears to be happening.

Not expecting i to disappear. More along the lines of my being to be clearer.Last night was tracing the for where 'I" came from. The innate bring at birth, and then she shaping and molding though teaching, experiences, and what becomes memories. And the question, 'what was your face before you were born?' The shaping o my self-identity through life thus far has clouded and muddied the view of the world. it has made the lens that should be clear opaque. 'I' is the film on the glass that prevents seeing and living in complete clarity. it would be nice if he glass were a bit cleaner.

Is this happening?

Not at the moment. It is not an expectation, but certainly a potential possibility.

What needs to percolate deeper?

What i know intellectually has to become incorporated as belief. I can say I believe it, and I truly feel that way. The problem is, if it was a true belief, like - i i drop this rock, it will fall - then we would be having a different conversation.

I love the driving analogy. There have been periods on long drives where "i" wasn't there for 30 minutes and then I was like - oh wow, how did i get here? Knowing and accepting and surrendering to me not being in control? LIBERATION! it would not change what gets done. It would not change anything except there would be the freedom to let go of the tension that is holding on trying to keep everything in perfect order.

Is this happening?

So if it happens whilst driving – where else does it happen? Do you control the happening or does it JUST happen? What can ‘you’ a thought, hold onto anything?????
Love Sarah xx[/quote]

It has happened while driving (unfortunately not nearly often enough - would make road trips a breeze). When doing acupuncture, some of the best work is done if I am busy and don't have time for my head to get in the way. I do not control the happening, but there is still the holding on to the old beliefs, trying to shake them out. "I" truly cannot hold onto anything,

Thank you,
chris