Thank you for guiding me

[Bowzie]

Hi ya detox

What would happen if you allowed your self to soften by pausing, opening up and relaxing, trust what emerges, and then allow yourself to listen deeply? (perhaps do this tiny insight dialogue why you are on retreat)

I'm very happy to try this. At lunchtime today I came home, the sun was shining and we had a picnic, I played on the seesaw with my son and jumped on the trampoline with him. Rather than thinking of something else, that I would usually class as more important. Nothing else needed to be done at that time. I am trying to do and be with what is present and just think that the rest will take care of itself. I got back to work on time.

can you see that anger, aversion, fear are energies arising. They become painful when the illusion of self begins to identify with them.

I'd like to give myself more to look in to separating these out. The sensation i feel in my heart that i label as painful, is actually very similar to the feeling i have of deep love or compassion, or just deep feeling. I can feel these things as energy, yes.

I took my nail varnish off today, deep I know. The polish remover got in to cuts on my hands and it was painful. I closed my eyes and attempted to experience the pain without me present. It was sensation, energy, popping, fuzzing and waving around before it dissipated.

Could the pain be a relief - of seeing what you describe
I

t's when I have come in to association with an experience and i have aversion to it or want, but can't have something and many other versions.

Could this be a reaction to what has been seen and nothing else?

I don't understand these, could you say a bit more please? The pain is a relief or a reaction to something seen? How does reaction work? May be that is the blip bit that I was talking about. Something makes the experience different, like a televised happening of something. I'm watching the tv instead of the actual experience. That sounds a bit mad.

But trust what you see - rather than trust in the thought that arises after you have seen.[\quote] nice, I'll give this a go. But again there is a separation preceding this that I have to practise initially.

write to me Thursday and Friday

unfortunately there will be no chance to be on a computer tomorrow, I will be working through my lunch to be able to leave early, jumping straight in a car after that and going to the retreat. I will type stuff though and and then paste it on when I get back on Sunday.

[quote I would like you to simply notice your emotions without any label.

Are these emotions felt by anyone?
Are they happening to anyone?

I'll keep staying open to finding an anyone, so far Im finding a thought beneath them, fear of not getting this, fear of not getting it right, storylines about me emerging, doubt... Happening yes, and felt yes, staying with those to see what's under...more thoughts, more stories.

Speak soon and thanks again, particularly for the encouragement.
With Metta SJ x

[Bowzie]

Friday - Emotions are like rocky waves, I can feel the energy and when I feel that I drop in the question who is experiencing the emotion, there is a sense of me, collectively all this happening here, now is me. But thats my thoughts rather than the experience. there is no individual sense, separate to the emotion, there is the emotion, then a storyline will come in about that, more emotion as a result of that...round and round, up and down.

When I ask who is this happening to? There is a strong sense that I am attached to whoever it is happening to, because I want pleasant and not painful emotions, want to control because of that. I love what I love and don't what I don't and those are particular things to me and are different to others, my conditions too. All that, but no sense of a separate me. Just a long and complex built up story. There is happening and there is painful feelings that I fall short of not doing or being in the 'happening' as well as I'd like to. That sounds ironic.

I will try to relax and pause in the moment as you suggested. Not so easy for a do'er! I fall short massively of my ideal, if I relax, then I hurt when I realise and hurt others. This is my view anyway. I have lots it seems, as you said.

[Bowzie]

Saturday - in meditation this morning, I started with the Metta, when reciting "may I be well" I then went into, well...who would be well? It felt like walls or something came down and vastness was experienced, not blue sky, but night sky, deep blue. In this thoughts arose etc, and there was sometimes a narrative, which was like me selfing. It narrated, say something about whatever was arising, but it was within this vastness, so there was perspective, take it or leave it...the experiences came and went, flowed. The selfing continued as well, sometimes and separate from the experience. Who is narrating? They are just thoughts as well. They come from this void, where thoughts come from. Does this narration stop once one has seen through? Or does the 'selfing' continue just with a different perspective, I wondered.

I had visions of these kind of narrative thoughts being like the backdrop to the stage, where it all happens, and that dropping. Or it is like one of those wobbly mirrors that you get at fairgrounds, reflecting a distortion of reality back-atcha. So again, thoughts, stories of experience and sensation. Nothing more. But before, there was just the interpretation, the thoughts, i was just watching the television screen, just seeing the distorted mirror, and I still do. Dropping of something was a sense I had, for those moments, so that there was no interpretation of the experiences emerging from the vastness. I could sit for a long time in this state, but it was not sustainable, back out to team meeting for the retreat, where I find it difficult to put the experience in to words. I guess it felt like what one may describe as a pure awareness meditation, but I'm not sure.

[Bowzie]

Hi Vimalasara

Hope you have had a good weekend, i had a very restful time with good friends. I have posted my writing from Friday and Saturday from on retreat. I hope thats ok?

Today meditation was not so focused. The first sit was an attempt at mindfulness, I ducked out of second sit to lay on my bed and do nothing. I laid there and decided to review in my mind the what i had so far, I thought, well, I have that vastness, then dropped in to that, then I have the experiences, emotions, thoughts whatever, then I have the narrating thoughts..and what else... that's all! Oh dear, that's it. Then came this bodily panic, which was like, who is driving/controlling this thing then? A bit like going along in a car and then realising no one is driving, or in a ship and no one is steering. That kind of lack of control thing. I tried to stay with the experience of that without labelling, but 'heart racing' and 'shallow breath' was still labelling.

So the narrating thoughts, the selfing thoughts, may be they kind of hook on to the experience and alter that or something? And the process of seating the two means you can see the experience and selfing thoughts, and then the vastness means you can see the selfing thoughts as what they are rather than just being able to see the mine-made experience when it has been hooked in to. Do the selfing thoughts continue?

I hope that the space this weekend has been good for this process, I have such little space in the world though. How does the experience in meditation or on retreat get sustained in daily life? (I'm not the one supposed to be asking questions am I?!)

I look forward to hearing from you.
With Metta, SJ x

[Detox]

Hi Sj Great to see you have been making progress. You have shared alot thank you. Before you went away you made a great observation

-As soon as there is an experience, i label it, as soon as i label it, i have embued it with a sense or story of I.

it's also great that you are seeing that "pain" is one of mind's labels and that the actual experience is neither good nor bad.

Reminding you that sensations are just sensations – whether pleasant, painful or neutral. I.e. it’s just a painful sensation, with thoughts identifying it as ‘me’ but it’s not any kind of self-entity. Same is true of anger,

Glad you were able to relax and trust what emerges as there is nothing to get and nobody to get it - you can just continue to relax and look.

you wrote on sunday

You had a great insight here - when you refer to your thoughts as a long and complex built up story

When I ask who is this happening to? There is a strong sense that I am attached to whoever it is happening to, because I want pleasant and not painful emotions, want to control because of that. I love what I love and don't what I don't and those are particular things to me and are different to others, my conditions too. All that, but no sense of a separate me. Just a long and complex built up story

Exactly - a long built up story - that can be let go of - when you see through the illusion of self.

You wrote this on retreat

I had visions of these kind of narrative thoughts being like the backdrop to the stage, where it all happens, and that dropping. Or it is like one of those wobbly mirrors that you get at fairgrounds, reflecting a distortion of reality back-atcha. So again, thoughts, stories of experience and sensation. Nothing more. But before, there was just the interpretation, the thoughts, i was just watching the television screen, just seeing the distorted mirror, and I still do. Dropping of something was a sense I had, for those moments, so that there was no interpretation of the experiences emerging from the vastness. I could sit for a long time in this state, but it was not sustainable

Trust what emerges – remember I asked you to do this – you have seen clearly --- what are you looking for? A big bang experience. Cliché or not – but --- it’s a good one. Before enlightenment it was chopping the wood and hauling the water and after enlightenment it was chopping the wood and hauling the water.
I’m not saying this is enlightenment what you see – but what I am saying isyou are beginning to see more clearly– and when we begin to see more clearly– there will still be gravitational pulls that will arise – like doubt, craving, ill will – what happens is they begin to loosen. It’s not like you begin to see clearly and you will never have a thought of doubt again, or a thought of anger, hatred, or never label experience again – yes you will but it becomes different. Things will not stick in the same way.

You asked me to explain

Could this be a reaction to what has been seen and nothing else?

When we see clearly – there is sensation – and when sensation arises – if we identify with the self we will react. Rather than lablling – just seeing it as a sensation arising and ceasing.

You speak of attachment
What are you attached to? Please reflect on this. What are you attached to? What are you holding on to?

I hope that the space this weekend has been good for this process, I have such little space in the world though. How does the experience in meditation or on retreat get sustained in daily life

The whole of the spiritual life can be meditation - after all what is meditation - bringing mindful attention to everything we do - so continue being aware of your present moment - do not get caught up in thought that says there is no space. There is space in every moment;
This is a great reflection

in meditation this morning, I started with the Metta, when reciting "may I be well" I then went into, well...who would be well? It felt like walls or something came down and vastness was experienced, not blue sky, but night sky, deep blue. In this thoughts arose etc, and there was sometimes a narrative, which was like me selfing. It narrated, say something about whatever was arising, but it was within this vastness, so there was perspective, take it or leave it...the experiences came and went, flowed. The selfing continued as well, sometimes and separate from the experience. Who is narrating? They are just thoughts as well. They come from this void, where thoughts come from. Does this narration stop once one has seen through? Or does the 'selfing' continue just with a different perspective, I wondered

Here is an exercise for you to do – so that the gap between retreat and your regular life does not seem so wide.


The self as the experiencer:
:

“In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?”
or
“Is there a seer separate from the seen?”
or
“Is there a hearer that hears?”

The self as the Doer / Controller: (you had glimpses of this while driving)
Please ask your ‘self i is the Doe?. Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

"get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking?"

okay this is enough to be going with - answer one question at a time - beginning with the attachment one first. Thank you . Be well. With kindness

Vimalasara

[Detox]

Hi Sj Great to see you have been making progress. You have shared alot thank you. Before you went away you made a great observation

-As soon as there is an experience, i label it, as soon as i label it, i have embued it with a sense or story of I.

it's also great that you are seeing that "pain" is one of mind's labels and that the actual experience is neither good nor bad.

Reminding you that sensations are just sensations – whether pleasant, painful or neutral. I.e. it’s just a painful sensation, with thoughts identifying it as ‘me’ but it’s not any kind of self-entity. Same is true of anger,

Glad you were able to relax and trust what emerges as there is nothing to get and nobody to get it - you can just continue to relax and look.

you wrote on sunday

You had a great insight here - when you refer to your thoughts as a long and complex built up story

When I ask who is this happening to? There is a strong sense that I am attached to whoever it is happening to, because I want pleasant and not painful emotions, want to control because of that. I love what I love and don't what I don't and those are particular things to me and are different to others, my conditions too. All that, but no sense of a separate me. Just a long and complex built up story

Exactly - a long built up story - that can be let go of - when you see through the illusion of self.

You wrote this on retreat

I had visions of these kind of narrative thoughts being like the backdrop to the stage, where it all happens, and that dropping. Or it is like one of those wobbly mirrors that you get at fairgrounds, reflecting a distortion of reality back-atcha. So again, thoughts, stories of experience and sensation. Nothing more. But before, there was just the interpretation, the thoughts, i was just watching the television screen, just seeing the distorted mirror, and I still do. Dropping of something was a sense I had, for those moments, so that there was no interpretation of the experiences emerging from the vastness. I could sit for a long time in this state, but it was not sustainable

Trust what emerges – remember I asked you to do this – you have seen clearly --- what are you looking for? A big bang experience. Cliché or not – but --- it’s a good one. Before enlightenment it was chopping the wood and hauling the water and after enlightenment it was chopping the wood and hauling the water.
I’m not saying this is enlightenment what you see – but what I am saying isyou are beginning to see more clearly– and when we begin to see more clearly– there will still be gravitational pulls that will arise – like doubt, craving, ill will – what happens is they begin to loosen. It’s not like you begin to see clearly and you will never have a thought of doubt again, or a thought of anger, hatred, or never label experience again – yes you will but it becomes different. Things will not stick in the same way.

You asked me to explain

Could this be a reaction to what has been seen and nothing else?

When we see clearly – there is sensation – and when sensation arises – if we identify with the self we will react. Rather than lablling – just seeing it as a sensation arising and ceasing.

You speak of attachment
What are you attached to? Please reflect on this. What are you attached to? What are you holding on to?

I hope that the space this weekend has been good for this process, I have such little space in the world though. How does the experience in meditation or on retreat get sustained in daily life

The whole of the spiritual life can be meditation - after all what is meditation - bringing mindful attention to everything we do - so continue being aware of your present moment - do not get caught up in thought that says there is no space. There is space in every moment;
This is a great reflection

in meditation this morning, I started with the Metta, when reciting "may I be well" I then went into, well...who would be well? It felt like walls or something came down and vastness was experienced, not blue sky, but night sky, deep blue. In this thoughts arose etc, and there was sometimes a narrative, which was like me selfing. It narrated, say something about whatever was arising, but it was within this vastness, so there was perspective, take it or leave it...the experiences came and went, flowed. The selfing continued as well, sometimes and separate from the experience. Who is narrating? They are just thoughts as well. They come from this void, where thoughts come from. Does this narration stop once one has seen through? Or does the 'selfing' continue just with a different perspective, I wondered

Here is an exercise for you to do – so that the gap between retreat and your regular life does not seem so wide.


The self as the experiencer:
:

“In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?”
or
“Is there a seer separate from the seen?”
or
“Is there a hearer that hears?”

The self as the Doer / Controller: (you had glimpses of this while driving)
Please ask your ‘self i is the Doe?. Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

"get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking?"


Finally for today u wrote Sunday Hi Vimalasara

Hope you have had a good weekend, i had a very restful time with good friends. I have posted my writing from Friday and Saturday from on retreat. I hope thats ok?

Today meditation was not so focused. The first sit was an attempt at mindfulness, I ducked out of second sit to lay on my bed and do nothing. I laid there and decided to review in my mind the what i had so far, I thought, well, I have that vastness, then dropped in to that, then I have the experiences, emotions, thoughts whatever, then I have the narrating thoughts..and what else... that's all! Oh dear, that's it. Then came this bodily panic, which was like, who is driving/controlling this thing then? A bit like going along in a car and then realising no one is driving, or in a ship and no one is steering. That kind of lack of control thing. I tried to stay with the experience of that without labelling, but 'heart racing' and 'shallow breath' was still labelling.

On Sunday u wrote

So the narrating thoughts, the selfing thoughts, may be they kind of hook on to the experience and alter that or something? And the process of seating the two means you can see the experience and selfing thoughts, and then the vastness means you can see the selfing thoughts as what they are rather than just being able to see the mine-made experience when it has been hooked in to. Do the selfing thoughts continue?

This is great letting go of control and seeing what flows. I refer to the selling question above


okay this is enough to be going with - answer one question at a time - beginning with the attachment one first. Thank you . Be well. With kindness

Vimalasara

[Bowzie]

Hi ya Vimalasara

What am I attached to.... I'd be here forever answering that one, there is so much. But what underlies that is thoughts, dreams, I think. Doing well at what I do for instance, whatever that means, I guess there must be an idea of what that is, and that is just a thought. The thoughts that come up, that my narrating thoughts hook on to....'mine-make', all of those thoughts, that's what I'm attached to. I'm attached to seeing though that distorted mirror as if it is the whole picture, because somehow that makes me believe that I am some how controlling things, 'my' thought, 'my' emotion, when that hooking, that mine-making happens after, and it all comes from nowhere. I'm attached to things that give me stuff to invest my 'self' in, that helps build that complex story further. And I hold on to it, beacause there is this mistaken belief that I am in control, holding on to all of it. Wow, that must take a lot of energy. I'm attached to the story of me!

With Metta
SJ x

[Detox]

HI SJ - this is all great - you write

I'm attached to things that give me stuff to invest my 'self' in, that helps build that complex story further.

So in essence you are attached to the illusion of self?

so if you were not attached to this illusion of self - what would happen?

I don't want to front load you with any more questions as I'm aware there are these below that still need answering.

The self as the experiencer:
:

“In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?”
or
“Is there a seer separate from the seen?”
or
“Is there a hearer that hears?”

The self as the Doer / Controller: (you had glimpses of this while driving)
Please ask your ‘self who is the Doer?. Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?

"get up… walk slowly…
is there a controller that controls walking?
or
is there just walking?"


Look forward to hearing from you soon
with kindness Vimalasara

[Bowzie]

Hi Vimalasara

so if you were not attached to this illusion of self - what would happen?

My experience was that the car still drives, without a driver. But I was not actually driving when I had that experience. I was laying on my bed on retreat. I used the analogy of the car driving along and realising no one was driving to describe the experience. Knowing there is no driver, does not stop the car going along. Nothing happens, nothing different. Just the selfing thoughts don't attach to the experiences and are seen for what they are, just thoughts.

[/quote] "In direct experience, can you find an “I” that experiences experience?” [/quote]

I cannot, I can find experience, thoughts, sensations, emotions, and when I try to find the "I" experiencing them....there is just more of the same, round and round. There is only the thoughts that "I" experience, there is the thought that i experience so "I" therefore exist, but again, only the thought. The "i" thought hooks on to the sensation/emotion/experience and then makes it mine, so "I am in pain", secondary suffering arises. But no substantial, separate experience of me.

[/quote] Is there a self that controls breathing? that walks? that does daily activities?[/quote]

I walk to work and back everyday, without the thought of doing it. It's not in my mind that I have to remember to put one foot in front of the other, or take the next breath. So I guess that is the same experience i mention above, the car keeps driving...

My self as do'er...deep rooted thoughts about self. I experience the sensation of a lot of energy with that thought. Is there such a thing as that? Thoughts that have been recurring for a long time, that the story is based around? Like a thought infrastructure that creates the illusion. Wow. I think I am a doer, I do, therefore I am, it confirms that I exists. Good trick!

With Metta
SJ x

[Detox]

Hi Sj,

great to see things moving - I must admit your last para - had me thinking -- had to let go of that - as there is no thinking and just thoughts arising and ceasing- Was not sure if you believed in the 'good trick or not'.

My self as do'er...deep rooted thoughts about self. I experience the sensation of a lot of energy with that thought. Is there such a thing as that? Thoughts that have been recurring for a long time, that the story is based around? Like a thought infrastructure that creates the illusion. Wow. I think I am a doer, I do, therefore I am, it confirms that I exists. Good trick!

Indeed as you state, it is a trick. A deluded one at best. Sadly Descartes - could not see beyond the illusion of the separate self. 'I think - therefore I am' was his deluded conclusion as he sat in the stove room and refuted everything he believed in. As there is no thinker and sadly he could not see by that thought he was recreating everything he had refuted. He fell prey to the good trick you talk about.

So it is brilliant if you can really see that thinking you are a doer is a Good trick, a deluded trick. ha ha ha.

The "i" thought hooks on to the sensation/emotion/experience and then makes it mine, so "I am in pain", secondary suffering arises

Yes it can be helpful to think of primary pain and secondary pain. All pain is sensation. Pleasant - unpleasant - neutral. And how we intensify the sensation by moving into aversion or craving. Playing a game of sensation. As said earlier Physical pain/sensation is real --- unavoidable. Emotion and experience are secondary - rather than primary.

You also write -

Knowing there is no driver, does not stop the car going along. Nothing happens, nothing different. Just the selfing thoughts don't attach to the experiences and are seen for what they are, just thoughts.

Just thoughts - that is all they are - and nothing else - great that you see this clearly.

A couple of questions for you.

1. are YOU the thinker of thoughts?
2. can YOU choose and think a thought?

Also you are seeing clearly identification for what this is.

3, So what identifies? are you identifying or is identification simply happening?
4.Can you see that this "one who identifies or not" is not AT ALL real?
5.Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required?

this is enough for now. Look forward to hearing from you Wednesday

Be well - and much kindness

[Bowzie]

Hello Vimalasara

great to see things moving - I must admit your last para - had me thinking -- had to let go of that - as there is no thinking and just thoughts arising and ceasing- Was not sure if you believed in the 'good trick or not'.[\quote]

I meant that the story thought (I do, or I'm crap at something) is reconfirmed when the result is just that, (when i do do, or i fail at something) and the illusion of self is continued or something (because the fact that has happened has confirmed the story of I thought). I was seeing that playing out. Sorry that was not clear. Its difficult to put experience in to words like this.

are YOU the thinker of thoughts?

The deep blue vastness is where the thoughts arise from, and that is within my mind, to that extent I guess so, but thats the context rather that i am doing the thoughts. But it's not ME thinking them up or creating them. They come out of no where, magically appear and disappear.

can YOU choose and think a thought?

I really wanted to think that I could choose a thought. So when I have directed thought, I can think, ok, I need to think about this right now, and then along comes thought out process with linked thoughts or something. But then, the original thought of ok, I need to think such and such through, where did that come from? So I was scuppered on that one. The memory might come for me to do that, but I don't choose the memories that come in to my mind, or ideas.

The thought arrives, out of nowhere, the mind experiences that thought, the awareness is like in receipt of that rather than active in its creation it feels like.

So what identifies? are you identifying or is identification simply happening?

The thoughts identify, they hook or stick to the experience/sensation/emotion, I'm not sure if they distort the same experience or if a distorted new experience is born from it, but that's the experience. This simply happens, although not so much with the space around it.

Can you see that this "one who identifies or not" is not AT ALL real? [\quote]

In my direct experience, I can see that there is no self creating the narrating thoughts of I. These narrating or selfing thoughts just come, just as all the other thoughts. There is not an I that either creates the thoughts or that links the narrating thoughts to the experience etc.

Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required

Sorry, I don't know if I know the answer, or completely understand the question. Do you mean required to see through the illusion? I needed the walls to come down for the vastness to be experienced, I needed that to happen I think to be able to separate/distinguish the narrating thoughts from the experience. I need you to give me questions to be able to go digging in the first place. I needed to take the time to review my experience in order to experience there being no driver or controller, and that it all still happens. I don't know if the selfing thoughts can stop? But i have seen this happening, but they havent stopped. If they stopped, there would be just the vastness (awareness) and the experience, but still thoughts. What else is there other than seeing? At the moment I am experiencing as well as seeing, I experience the vastness and like a looser way of being. May be I'll be with this one a bit more.

Thank you again.

With love
SJ x

[Detox]

Hi Sj, thanks for explaining what you meant.

I meant that the story thought (I do, or I'm crap at something) is reconfirmed when the result is just that, (when i do do, or i fail at something) and the illusion of self is continued or something (because the fact that has happened has confirmed the story of I thought). I was seeing that playing out. Sorry that was not clear. Its difficult to put experience in to words like this.

There is thought, and thought triggers feelings,(pleasant/unpleasant/neutral) when the feeling is not neutral a new thought arises labeling the feeling, and then we can begin to identify with this labelled feeling, and it can become more intense - and we are on the vicious cycle - . When I is at the centre, when we continue to think there is a separate self, this cycle will perpetuate.

What if there was no story?
What would it feel like not to have a story when (what you label as fail or something) ?
What would be happening if there was no story?

Great -

But it's not ME thinking them up or creating them. They come out of no where, magically appear and disappear.

You say you were

scuppered

. What scuppered you? Thoughts are only linked if we link them. It takes a lot of energy to find the original thought. And because thoughts are arising and ceasing all the time (though of course they do begin to lessen when we begin to see through the illusion of self) it is extremely challenging to find the original thought.

The thought arrives, out of nowhere, the mind experiences that thought, the awareness is like in receipt of that rather than active in its creation it feels like.

Exactly -

The thoughts identify, they hook or stick to the experience/sensation/emotion, I'm not sure if they distort the same experience or if a distorted new experience is born from it, but that's the experience. This simply happens, although not so much with the space around it.

Great


This is great - I can see how you are seeing clearly

In my direct experience, I can see that there is no self creating the narrating thoughts of I. These narrating or selfing thoughts just come, just as all the other thoughts. There is not an I that either creates the thoughts or that links the narrating thoughts to the experience etc.

Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required

[/quote][/quote]

Yes stay with this one a bit more - because you are seeing something.

I needed the walls to come down for the vastness to be experienced, I needed that to happen I think to be able to separate/distinguish the narrating thoughts from the experience. I need you to give me questions to be able to go digging in the first place. I needed to take the time to review my experience in order to experience there being no driver or controller, and that it all still happens. I don't know if the selfing thoughts can stop? But i have seen this happening, but they havent stopped. If they stopped, there would be just the vastness (awareness) and the experience, but still thoughts. What else is there other than seeing? At the moment I am experiencing as well as seeing, I experience the vastness and like a looser way of being. May be I'll be with this one a bit more.

Remember I said the other day - that selfing thoughts will not completely disappear. But they will become less, much less, if we can really see through the illusion of separate self. Yes there will be still thoughts - but no I to identify with them. No self to stick to. This I believe is the place of neutral. So yes thoughts still arising, selfing still happening - but not moving in to aversion because they are unpleasant, or moving in to craving because they are pleasant. Sensation will arise - there still will be unpleasant and pleasant - but we can begin to experience them more from the neutral place. Remember the story of the Buddha and Mara, as he sat beneath the Bodhi tree and gained enlightenment. Sensations manifested as Mara became intense- pleasantries heightened but the Buddha did not crave , unpleasantness heightened but the Buddha did not move into aversion. There was no self for any of this to stick to - no selfing - Thoughts just arose and ceased and the Buddha did no waver. Because there was no self. It is possible for all human beings to move closer to this. Of course we will waver, be pulled by gravitational pulls - but they will loosen - and it will become less.

Have the walls come down for you to see clearly there is no separate self?


with kindness
Vimalasara

[Bowzie]

hi Vimalasara

. What scuppered you? .

I wanted there to be some level of choice in thought, there wasn't.

What if there was no story?
What would it feel like not to have a story when (what you label as fail or something) ?
What would be happening if there was no story?

The stories. These are the selfing sticky thoughts. Less narrating, Less identification. Experiences and stuff happen as it is and it is left as it is. Selfing thoughts arise but do not 'acquire' the experience as their own. Things are. When you fail you fail, there is nothing for that to enforce...curiosity. The play of experience within the vastness would be happening. selfing thoughts without the stickiness. I am experiencing more space, I have dropped the thought there is none. Moments have opened up. I filled the space with the thought before may be! The space is filled more with others now, thoughts of others, rather than ME. Of course, this may be temporary and caused by other conditions. But this is my current experience. I am also finding that I am able to feel more fully present in each moment (I know it sounds cliche, but I don't know how else to describe it) because I don't have to worry about controlling things, things get done, they just happen, without me having to think it all through or if I'm not on it, it will all fall apart or something.

it is extremely challenging to find the original thought.

yes, the thoughts are playing the same old story again and again.

Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required

Is there something more than seeing? More seeing? Is there more to see? From my experience, there is nothing else. I guess if this is it, there is working on less identification next. Or may be that just happens naturally having seen all this. I think it is happening less. Less sticky selfing, less identification, not looking through the distorted mirror. Just doing what needs to be done next, less preference.

Have the walls come down for you to see clearly there is no separate self?

I have seen that. Is this sustainable though? I'm waiting for some craving and aversion....just to be on the safe side! I'm experiencing a lot more of just the body sensation though.

Love SJ x

[Detox]

Hi Sj inspiring to read your thread. you wrote the following today

Is there something more than seeing? More seeing? Is there more to see? From my experience, there is nothing else. I guess if this is it, there is working on less identification next. Or may be that just happens naturally having seen all this. I think it is happening less. Less sticky selfing, less identification, not looking through the distorted mirror. Just doing what needs to be done next, less preference.

Can you unpack this for me. Are you saying that you have experienced seeing through the illusion of separate self and can see there is no separate self ever?

I am asking you this as this para made me look through the thread to see if there was anything unanswered. Before I ask you a set of questions that are reviewed by other guides. So these questions also arose.

What is going on in your life that conflicts with the reality of no self?


i was also struck by your response to the question "Do you need this to stop before you can see through it, or is there something more than seeing required?'," and then noticed that u highlighted it too

'Sorry, I don't know if I know the answer, or completely understand the question.

'


What is selfing?

What is sankharas?

Is there a doer ?

Finally just want to ask you about emotions as they have been an important theme throughout your thread, and helped you to look more deeply.

Is it possible to notice emotions without a label?

Are emotions felt by anyone or happening to anyone?

Looking forward to hearing back from you soon

With kindness Vimalasara

[Bowzie]

Hi Vimalasara

I spent hours writing a reply,something happened when I hit submit...I was not logged in anymore and it's all gone. It's midnight so I will have to write tomorrow. I'm sorry. Here is what I had per-written.


Your qu: what is going on in your life that conflicts with reality?
I feel upset and I feel aversion, I can see how my narrating selfing thoughts have acquired the experience of painful sensation and personalised it. I experienced this today when being spoken to nastily by my supervisor, again. I feel righteous indignation when critical thoughts arise about someone else. Again, a form of aversion. I also like chocolate. I dont know, does that mean I have or haven't seen through the illusion?

You ask if seeing is enough, no, i'd love for this process to make the suffering finish. But it isn't going to do that. Actually, I feel like there is more pain in my body because my stories aren't sticking to it as much and I am noticing that more. Seeing is all there is to see now. But surely there is always work to do? Deeper understanding. Or is that the volition, the samskara that you ask about? This is will, to see things how they are.

Samskaras, I believe that they flavour my thoughts, they are the pattern my thoughts etc move in, the deep stories, where the content comes from. They are habitual tendencies, habits, sometimes that I am unconscious of.

Selfing are the thoughts that narrate about I. How I self is dictated by samskaras,tendencies. They are sticky and acquire or distort my experience/view of experience. When I just see through these thoughts, I am looking just through the distorted mirror, or through a televised (biased media) account of the how things are. If this stopped how would I see through it? The deep blue vastness puts it all in context, puts the space between the selfing thoughts and the experience.

Is there a doer.. Nope, there is doing, there is feeling, but I can't find the experience of a separate doer or feeler.

All the stuff I wrote about the separation of emotion and labels has gone. I'll have to start again tomorrow. A good time to not hook the i in emotion....!

With love
SJ x