who would like to guide me?

[tsaheylu]

maybe looking goes in cycles of intensity - but can you ever find any 'you' controlling that? Or any 'you' experiencing that, outside of a thought?

i cannot controle the looking because i do not force things. experience is personal. it is only mine, as it is no one elses.

[odemira]

Experience IS, it happens - but is there a 'YOU' that it happens to? or is that just what a thought says?

[tsaheylu]

Experience IS, it happens - but is there a 'YOU' that it happens to? or is that just what a thought says?

it's a body that it happens to and experience is experienced through this body only.

[odemira]

Are 'you' the body? Check again and see.

Are 'you' the owner of what is experienced?

If a hand touches 'your' hand, notice that there is a seeing of two hands touching, sensations of touch felt - but can you find anything outside of a labelling thought that says 'This is my hand, that is your hand'? Please really LOOK at this, don't think about it or analyse it etc.

[tsaheylu]

dear annie,
i'm looking...
heeps of appreciation and gratitude for your pointing and guidance,
with love,
liv

[tsaheylu]

dear annie,

it's been silent and there has not been a draw to post,
up to now. i am just listening to the interview elena had with jerry katz (youtube)
and she mentioned two things, which popped out at me...

she said that once a person sees the illsuion of self, it's over, it's done, they don't need any more
looking because they have seen, and then things begin to shift, because the illusion is seen once and for all.
is this true for all, everytime? is it only once, or can there be seeing and then forgetting again, going back and forth? Or ist it like a baby born, that cannot go back into the womb? Or is it like seeing that the oasis is a fatamorgana, but then there is still is the possibility of thinking that the next fatamorgana might be an oasis again?

i guess "i am not done" yet, because there is still identification happening...

the questions i receieved from you and wrote down, are saved in my memory bank (in mind/thinking) and sometimes they show up. to ask them as a practice has not been happening. force is counterproductive.

there is more of a subtle awareness that peeks through, sometimes, not all the time, of identification with a me going on, when identification is playing out. when talking to poeple, there is always identification happening. there is always still the sense that i am liv. but is this a problem? when i heard elena talk, again i noticed the desire arising to finally see, as aparently i have not clearly seen yet. but where is this desire coming from? it seems like it's coming from not liking the feeling of believing in and coming from being liv, because it is very unpleasant in every way, because liv is absolutely and always inadequate; and coming from this perception, what is, is also never good enough and often even seems unbearable. at the same time, as soon as it gets unpleasant, i withdraw my attention from being on the outside, mingling in a story of a happening between characters and situations, towards inside, into here-now, breath, silence, being aware of thoughts.

there is a stickyness yet, that doesn't seem to unstick though, and that is, for example, memory of aweful things that i have done. how can i deny that i have done aweful things, causing pain to whom i love most? there is still the sense that i could have behaved differently. this is unbearable to entertain. but pushing away these memories that sometimes pop up when i am very relaxed, out of nowhere, is denial.

i reckon the only way to find salvation from this pain, is to truely realize that it was not me afterall behaving, doing, but another dream that life experienced. this shows me that i have not fully seen yet.

then she said that , when people see, that self does not exist, those moments are very, very dynamic.
is that also true everytime and for everyone? or can it go unnoticed and trickle in and out for a while and gradually
stabalize until at some point there is a realization that something shifted to the point that there is no identification happening without there being full awareness of it and hence no more indentification with someone identifying would be possible?

much love,
liv

[tsaheylu]

p.s.

i am just at 1:40 hrs of the interview, where elena says, that what happens to people when they have seen the illsuion of self, is, that they cannot run on motivation anymore, they can only do what they feel inspired to. or at least she points to a shift happening from motivation to inspiration. this has been happening for me for several years now, after i had a total burn-out six years ago. i would say the same thing. because the experience is, that motivation comes from reason, hence from rational mind, hence from conditioned thinking. and this just doesn't seem to kick in the gear anymore to do anything. my huge challenge has been, that at the same time i did not feel inspired either to do hardly anything. and now slowly, i am realizing that the suffering from emptyness, boredom and no inspiration is coming from resistance to emptyness, to there being no inspiration to do anything. on the other hand, now i can begin to see, that there actually is a draw, to do something, and that is, to do nothing. to simply sit with what is and allow and do nothing about it, and see how wanting to do something "about it", fix and make better, arises, out of the feeling of this moment not being enough as it is. at the same time there has been inspiration to take care of the body and housekeep, all along as well. so there is the beginning of a shift in perception, when this bad feeling arises as a result of resisting the notion of nothing, nothing happening, emptyness...of noticing what is really happening right now. the bad feeling arises from believing it should be different and that the notion that there is no inspiration to be someone in the world and do something in the world or just do something fun or creative etc. means something negative about me, points to there being something wrong with me...and then as this old familiar thinking-feeling pattern arises, it can be questioned to the truth of its notion. and as this questioning arises, there is a shift in experience as well. a being ok with what is, subtly taking the place of resistance and believing.

love, liv

[odemira]

Hi Liv,
As there had been a long gap in your posts, I had not been checking this thread, so that is
why I am only replying now.

Everyone's journey is unique, for some there is a sudden realisation, and for some a
gradual trickle of realisation. The questions are: Do you exist, Liv, as a separate body?
Do you think you are in the body? Do you think that you think your thoughts, that they
are your thoughts? Do you do things in life? Do things happen to you? Are you on the inside
looking at a world outside? Wherever your answer is yes, that's where looking is required.

You are right that suffering is created when the thoughts are believed that say things should be different
than they are - who wants them to be different? Can that 'person' be found? Only a thought
says so. Being ok with what is = heaven, wanting it to be different = hell.

So if you are drawn to look more, tell me yes or no to the questions above, and I can point
you where to look.

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

thank you very much annie,
for your post! that felt good to read that for some people, it's not sudden, it just trickles in.
otherwise i realize that my last two posts where coming from a wanting to understand, the mind
trying to make sense. and this is not what we are doing here. a momentary regression ;)
thank you for the pointers. i have added them to the list. there has not been a draw to look
lately. and yet something is working in silence...
thank you so much for offering to point when looking happens again ! :)
much love,
liv

[odemira]

you are very welcome, dear liv. do send me a pm when looking happens again, and i'll come to this thread. :)
with love
annie