A quick jog through the gate.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Walbart :)

It's not about trading or switching beliefs and identification, it's about not having any. It's about looking and seeing that you don't exist at all. All identification is false.

Yes, all identification is false (including the identification with/as "no-self"). But this understanding needs to be more than just a mental/conceptual understanding. Otherwise we are just trading identifications.

It's really that simple eh? ;) Just don't let the thoughts/beliefs come back? Name and *shame* any identification?

Yes, keep looking until you see it. There is nothing anywhere that you can say is "you".

I'm sorry, but "shaming" anything is not something I am prepared to do. I consciously choose to embrace everything. Including any identifications and any perceived mistakes or shortcomings. It is much easier to let go of something that I choose to love and embrace and am okay with, then it is to let go of something I am feeling guilty over (the whole "don't think of an elephant" thing). I'm actually a bit stunned that you would suggest "shaming" anything. Other than in some of the fundamentalist religions I have never heard of any "path" advocating shaming.

What you say is true enough, but this isn't about changing habits or stopping thoughts.

???? "Just don't let the thoughts/beliefs come back" ..... um... that isn't trying to "stop thoughts?"

It's about not believing every thought that arises.

Yes I understand. And that's already happening here. But we can't choose not to believe a thought. It either happens or it doesn't right? If we *can* choose not to believe a thought, please tell me who is doing that choosing.

Mental habits can be worked through later, but it's more likely that they will fall away when the core belief in a self is annihilated. And I don't mean the self is annihilated (there isn't one), but the belief is annihilated. Habits will continue, thoughts will continue, trauma will continue, beliefs will continue, but you see them for what they are, the momentum of characteristics, conditioning, stories. Suffering is caused by believing what you think. Suffering is caused by believing the contents of thoughts.

All the beliefs/habits/conditioning/stories I can see myself holding on to I can consciously release. The beliefs I *can't* see I can't release. How can you release something you aren't aware of holding on to? The name of the game is increasing the awareness of our beliefs/habits/conditioning/stories so that we can let go of them.

Any *experience* of "no-self" will never "stick" simply because it is an experience. Experiences don't last.

Seeing there is no self isn't an experience.

Uh, yeah.... that's what I said. ;D

This has nothing to do with states, bliss, universal consciousness or anything like that. It's about looking at life and seeing that there isn't a you at the centre that it is happening to. It's not an experience. And it's not about seeing that you are life and everything. Underneath the body and the mind lies nothing. There's nothing there. No identity of any kind. Can you look in your own direct experience and confirm this?

Yes.

It seems that there will always be (ever subtler and subtler) identifications that continue to need to be looked at

If you remove ALL identification you won't need to worry about this.

As soon as you stop looking (for more identifications because you have "removed them all") you have lost. Game over. This is why I said at the very beginning, that labeling oneself as "liberated" creates a very comforting "landing spot" and that I am not interested in that whatsoever. My only desire is to keep going and going and going to no end. There is no end to the deepening.

Take it easy.

You too buddy :)

Love!
Carson :)

[Walbart]

Yes, all identification is false (including the identification with/as "no-self"). But this understanding needs to be more than just a mental/conceptual understanding. Otherwise we are just trading identifications

That why I haven't said anything about this being a mental or conceptual understanding. You have to just look and see that there is nothing to identify with. Look now, you wont find a single thing outside of thoughts that is identified as I or me. You look. Using the body's awareness, you look, and you see, or become aware of, the fact that there is nothing there outside of thoughts, feelings, sensations, bodily presence, that you can identify with.

I consciously choose to embrace everything.

Embrace falseness? Embrace the assumptions you've been conditioned to believe? When I use the word shaming, I use it in the context of questioning your assumptions. If a thought appears that "I am everything", you examine it and rip it apart and see what is left. I can tell you what is left but you need to do it for yourself.

Other than in some of the fundamentalist religions I have never heard of any "path" advocating shaming.

Pardon my French, but wtf? This isn't a path, and you are too hooked on the word shaming. I said you have to name and shame, as in, call out and shine a light on every thought that appears about what you think you are here. Enlighten yourself, get out of the darkness of your conditioning and programming. If you're not prepared to "shame" your thoughts into submission then you will never get this. Thoughts are your biggest enemy in all of this. Love and embrace them by all means, but they will not bring you to truth.

???? "Just don't let the thoughts/beliefs come back" ..... um... that isn't trying to "stop thoughts?"

They won't leave, you have to see through them, see them for what they are. Stop being pedantic. You don't stop thoughts, you shine the spotlight on them.

If we *can* choose not to believe a thought, please tell me who is doing that choosing.

There is no one doing the choosing. It's more like the actual thought does't suck in all the attention and awareness. It's seen from a wider angle. It isn't choosing not to believe something, it's an understanding of the nature of thoughts. There is a clearer seeing of what is rising in experience.

My only desire is to keep going and going and going to no end. There is no end to the deepening.

Good. Me too. Sorry I haven't been able to help you here Carson, you seem pretty set in your ways.

[CarsonZi]

Hi Walbart :)

Sorry I haven't been able to help you here Carson, you seem pretty set in your ways.

No worries. Thanks for trying so hard. It's "me" not "you." ;D

Love!
Carson :)

[Walbart]

Ok, I'm always here if you ever want to talk at me :)

Or feel free to open another thread and try with someone else. A friend suggested I post a link to this video here, said it might be beneficial to you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0g1zwdTRxrU#t=4m15s


Please question your beliefs.

WB.

[vinceschubert]

Hey Carson, come back, i'd like to play.

[vinceschubert]

My only desire is to keep going and going and going to no end. There is no end to the deepening.

i'm interested in this.
Do you have an idea of how it might be ?
How do you propose to deepen ?

[CarsonZi]

Hi Walbart, Vince... :)

@Walbart: I like talking *with* you, but as far as talking *at* you, well, no thanks. ;) I'm also keenly aware of wasting your time ('cause I'm not questioning my beliefs hard enough I guess ;) ) so, no pressure to engage with me, but if you feel like it, hop on in. :D

Thanks for the youtube video too.... I'll have to wait to watch it when I have some time and am at home. Youtube is blocked by the SmartFilter on my work computer here so I can't watch it right now. :)

@Vince: I'm all about "the play" so if you are down, lets do it. :D

My only desire is to keep going and going and going to no end. There is no end to the deepening.

i'm interested in this.
Do you have an idea of how it might be ?
How do you propose to deepen ?

As far as having any idea as to how it might be, I have no clue. :D It's all one big mystery. Luckily I *love* mystery and am at peace with the "not-knowing."

As far as the "how do I propose to deepen," well, for now, I plan to continue using the tools I have at my disposal... at least the ones that have proven to be most effective for me. I have a set of specific practices I do twice a day and then some "non-formal" practices I do all day long... this "multi-facetted" approach seems to be quite effective at continually causing a deepening of clarity, insight and (the connection to) "pure awareness" here.

In case you are asking about what I am specifically doing to see and let go of my beliefs/identity attachments, I am actively practicing the following (not sure if it will be incredibly relevant to our conversation so I'll keep it as short as possible since there are a lot of practices I'm regularly engaged in):

-Twice a day I practice a specific breathing technique (which prepares the nervous system for meditation in a number of ways) followed by deep meditation followed by samyama (a surrendering/letting go practice). The meditation practice is specifically geared towards training the mind to let go of thoughts (breaking the mental habit of following one thought into the next by returning to the mantra anytime we notice we are off into thought), cultivating what I would call "the space where there is no investment in thought" (aka inner silence, aka samadhi, aka pure awareness, aka blah blah blah ;) ) and purifying the central energy channel via the vibration of the mantra. There are a few other practices that are included in this routine but it would take too long to explain. :)

-I am also practicing what most would call "karma yoga" or selfless service, which is just simply doing actions with no intent to receive anything for myself in return for these actions. By doing this it helps me to see through the illusion of the separate self by giving me direct experience with the fact that no matter what is done, we all benefit (in one way or another). Meaning, as I do actions with the intent of "helping others," it becomes directly known that there is no such thing as "selfless service" because everyone (myself included) benefits from action with no intent for "payback." This deepens the perspective of seeing everything/everyone as equals.

-I also practice what many would call "self-inquiry" which is essentially what you guys are doing here at LU. Inquiring into the validity of thoughts and beliefs and letting go of everything possible. For this I use the practice of samyama as well as formal practices like "The Work." The practice of samyama is to gently bring awareness to whatever thought/emotion/sensation is arising in the moment and then let go of it and allow it to dissolve. This practice doesn't work (in my experience) without being firmly grounded in "inner silence" which again is cultivated through consistent daily practice of deep meditation.

-I also practice tantra (both right and left hand path). The right hand path I follow is essentially described (loosely) in my first point and the left hand path is simply to cultivate ecstatic/orgasmic/kundalini energy through "pre-orgasmic" sex.

-The last (main) practices I use as part of the "deepening" process are the grounding practices. This is just lots and lots of physical activity and full engagement with regular daily human activities (this helps to integrate the inner silence and ecstatic energies cultivated through the formal practices, with the body). For me this involves deep, in the moment engagement with everything I am doing, whether that is being with my family, doing the dishes, cooking food, folding laundry, building/renovating my home, going to work and engaging in work relationships, etc etc etc. This just helps to keep me "here" instead of off in the astral realms somewhere (both figuratively as well as literally).

Essentially, (on top of all the formal sitting practices) I use every moment and every opportunity that is presented, as a chance to "deepen." My only intention for this life is to unfold as much as possible... to maximize potential. This is why I am here (in general as well as at LU). :) I'm not looking for anything to replace what is already working for me, but I am always looking for new tools I can put in my toolbox so-to-speak.

Sorry for the uber-long, overly-detailed answer. :)

Love!
Carson :)

[vinceschubert]

No worries, long is good.

at least the ones that have proven to be most effective for me.

What is your criteria for effectiveness.
The tools that give you a good experience as distinct to the tools that actually Deepen - how do you gauge their effect. i mean obviously they are all subjective, so what do you look for ?

[CarsonZi]

Hi Vince :)

What is your criteria for effectiveness.

I judge the effectiveness of the tools based on how my daily living experience is affected by them. If (in general) my daily life is getting better (ie. more peace, more clarity, more love, more compassion, more happiness, more energy, more joy, and on and on and on, then was being experienced before) then I know that the practices are working. The reason I use the disclaimer "in general" is because there are "phases" and sometimes things can become more challenging before they loosen up.

For example... before I started using the above mentioned tools I was addicted to IV heroin (and daily methadone) and methamphetamine, marijuana, and had recently tried to commit suicide by overdose because I perceived my life as sucking so bad. Now, several years after using the above mentioned tools every day (keeping in mind to pace myself so that I remain balanced and not overdoing anything) my life is filled with indescribable joy the majority of the time. Has every single day since starting spiritual practices (with earnst) been a cakewalk? Fuck no. But "in general," Life is about a million bazillion times "better" then it was just a few short years ago. Am I willing to "land" here (at indescribably joy the majority of the time)? Fuck no. Ever onwards. And that's what I meant by saying I only have desire to keep going and going and going to no end. :)

Much Love my friend. :D
Carson

[vinceschubert]

How about compassion ? i see it as one of you measuring sticks. Does it extend to helping others to experience the essence of what you have found ? Do you see this as possible ?, valuable ?, desirable ?

[CarsonZi]

Hi Vince! :D

How about compassion ? i see it as one of you measuring sticks.

Yup! I actually mentioned compassion. ;D

If (in general) my daily life is getting better (ie. more peace, more clarity, more love, more compassion, more happiness, more energy, more joy, and on and on and on, then was being experienced before) then I know that the practices are working.

Does it extend to helping others to experience the essence of what you have found ? Do you see this as possible ?, valuable ?, desirable ?

Yes I see it as valuable and desirable (will get to "possible" in a second), but to only a specific extent.

I have been teaching the style of spiritual practice I mentioned above for almost 3 years now as a "paying it forward" kind of thing. But, just recently (a couple of months ago) life put me in a situation that meant I will no longer be able to continue teaching regularly (logistical thing).... this caused me to go into grieving and mourning. This (the grieving) was the direct result of having some univestigated identity lodged in the role of being "a teacher." There was some subtle ego still present in playing the role of guide or teacher and I had to let go of that. I didn't want to let go of it (hell, I didn't even want to see or acknowledge it!!) so life put me in a position where I had no choice but to look at it (and consequently release it). So, to answer your question, yes, in my experience, helping others by sharing what has been found can be a symptom of liberation manifesting as compassion.

As far as sharing clarity (and the other benefits of awakening) with others being possible, yes, it is possible... but in my experience using words as the medium to share clarity (and happiness/joy/peace etc etc) is not very effective. Clarity, in my experience, is most effectively shared in silence and in presence. Words can aid in the intellectual understanding of clarity to a limited extent so I'm not writing words off completely, but in my experience, real clarity/peace/happiness/joy/etc is indescribable and beyond words. Words are a bastardization of a "liberated experiencing" in my opinion.

Thanks again taking the time to converse with me Vince!

Much Love!
Carson :)

[vinceschubert]

stop thanking me Carson.

I have been teaching the style of spiritual practice I mentioned above for almost 3 years now as a "paying it forward" kind of thing.

Were you 'getting results' ?
Were they mainly seeing the hallucination of an I ? or what ?

[CarsonZi]

Hi VInce :)

Were you 'getting results' ?

Are we talking personal results or "student" results? Either way, the tangible results always vary. Some are getting a ton of benefit and come to every class. Some don't find what they are looking for and only come once. Pretty sure that is the same as just about any system. Either way, I'm not looking for any specific outcomes from teaching this system (which is not mine, just fyi ;) ). I'm just sharing a set of tools that has been demonstrated to make people's lives a lot better. Where it goes from there depends on a lot of variables.... none of which I am in control of.

Were they mainly seeing the hallucination of an I ? or what ?

I honestly have no idea how to answer that. I don't have a clue what anyone else sees or if they could somehow show me what they see, if I could interpret it in a way similar to how they do.

But really. I'm not here to compare (or advertise any) systems. I'm here to see what LU offers. Not sure where this is going at this point. :)

Love!
Carson :)

[vinceschubert]

I'm here to see what LU offers.

Oh, Ok, i thought we were just playing. :-)
Hmm, no ideas about what LU can offer.
Maybe you just have to hang around and see what eventuates ?
Elizabeth is talking to you on that subject, is she not ?

Back to play'n
Carson, given what you said about 'classes' etc. you have been rubbing up against sleepwalkers (mostly)
What would be your take on rubbing up against people who are stretching, yawning and rubbing the sleep from their eyes ?
It's a different ball game.
One you could be good at (you can be a prick when required - amongst other things)
One we certainly could use around here. There aren't many old timers around here. (maybe they just fade off into Blissville.)

[Walbart]

I'm just sharing a set of tools that has been demonstrated to make people's lives a lot better

Who? What people?