Dance with me - A request for guidance

[otterrivers]

hey john. good answers so far. one thing nagging at me I want to sort out:

'Self' owns a car, has a wife and family, has a body, thinks thoughts and experiences things. and is constantly making choices and doing things. All the world is seen in relation to self. As with billions of others, the idea of 'self' is accepted as a matter of course, it's reality is hardly ever questioned. Why ever should it be questioned? There it is, an evident truth.

You say you see that self was never there in reality. how does it own a car or have anything? can you see how that may confuse me some?
And you say you cannot find self when looking so where is the evident truth?
It may be just a matter of wording. can you clarify what you are talking about there?
thanks :)

[John86]

Sorry for the confusion. The first paragraph 'self owns a car...' was trying to show my old understanding of self, how things used to be for me and how things still are for billions of people. It is not a description of my current understanding. 'Self' does not own anything, it is just a concept. It cannot be found in reality, it does not exist.

In that old understanding the concept of self was taken for granted and never questioned. There appeared to be no reason to question it because that way of viewing the world seemed to fit together seamlessly, and everyone around me bought into it. So it appeared to be a fact of life, it appeared to be an evident truth.

[John86]

It's looking most unlikely that there will be enough time to answer the questions for a bit, we're away on holiday on Saturday for a week, then on the day after we return we're moving house, which leaves little time to pack everything. I had hoped to complete the questions before we went, but things happened...

[John86]

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

These are good days, happy days, and although life continues as normal, with its up and downs, the downs seem less potent and the ups, well there is more of them, sometimes gentle and joyful, and sometimes there is a more intense joy that feels like it wants to shine out of my body. Generally there's more of just being content with the way life is. It is happening just fine right here and now.

There is a fairly constant feeling of ... and it's difficult to find the right words... a lightness of consciousness, a spaciousness, it could even be labelled a 'freedom'

There have been one or two moments when a more profound change occurred where it felt like a sort of shift happened where everything appeared animated by the same force. There is some desire to experience that again.

And there have been times when I've 'stepped back' and just noticed, like the other morning when I watched in amazement my body doing all the complicated actions of getting washed and dressed without any instruction from the conscious mind.

The future remains something that can be worried over or not worried over. I have never been one to worry too much about it, and I worry even less now. It can be looked forward to, and with this new perspective there's a whole new world out there to discover. Bring it on.

[otterrivers]

yes! lovely! it's great to see you speak like this.
I hope it's ok for me too feel a bit proud, cuz I do. :)

we'll check out the rest of your answers before moving on, but you can see that all this talk is unimportant in contrast with the "freedom"(liberation) that is experienced. isn't that what this is all about? all these words and concepts can go to hell, it's this freedom we're after, no? I have an article i'd like to send you on this subject. not as gate guidance, just an interesting read and maybe it can offer some insight on this subject. i'll send it as a personal message here in the forum.

even if we do end up asking you more questions and tying up some loose ends after you finish answering, i'd like to congratulate you on the newfound freedom. isn't it great? even when it isn't, it's at least honest. how great to finally get real, huh???

[John86]

Thanks! It's YOU who deserves the credit though. Thank YOU! Great job! And huge thanks to the rest of the LU team of course. What an extraordinary phenomenum LU is, particularly in this commercial day and age. Wow!

Waking up each day now finding it's still there, starting to believe it might persist, barely begun to understand the implications...

Hey, if I'm allowed to have doubts then you must be allowed to feel some pride.:)

[John86]

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

If I have to pick one bit I'd say the "all through life you have been living the life of an imaginary character " passage where it was shown that I was allowed to have doubts. 'Doubts' were becoming a sticking point. Another big push was the question "what is real outside now?" although I had no idea why it was so compelling at the time.

[otterrivers]

yes! doubts happen or they don't. pride is noticed or not. are we trying to stop these? hell no.
there is nothing in existence to have the pride or doubts. seeing this, you're free! free to let life do what it was already doing anyway, but now without the weird beliefs making it unpleasant for you.

2 more questions to go. lookin' good. :)

[John86]

The local electricity sub-station blew-up last night, so our whole town was without power until this afternoon. It also wiped my prepared response to 5). That must be my best excuse yet. There's no time left to respond before holiday and moving. Will continue on my return in about 10 days.

[otterrivers]

damn. haha. it's completely fine, my friend. though I will admit I was excited to see your replies and get you confirmed by other guides before you left. for my own self indulgence, no doubt. haha. it's just perfect though. what is my hurry? thank you electricity sub-station for blowing out. now I can anticipate your return lol. just perfect. let me know how your holiday goes! enjoy.

[otterrivers]

hey I noticed it's been about 11 days. write back when ya get time. :)

[John86]

Finally, after a great holiday, an average move, and a much delayed reconnection to the internet, I can continue...

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

There is no 'I' to make decisions, choose, control or make anything happen. Currently though life is much the same as ever. Old pre-non-self patterns of thought continue in much the same way as they ever did, choices still appear to present themselves eg - "Should I have soup for lunch today or poached egg on toast?", and the same old reasoning seems to happen to resolve the choices: "The soup won't keep for another day whereas the eggs will, so I'd better have the soup.". This can be seen as if an 'I' has made a reasoned decision, but if we look a little deeper we see things differently: We can see that there was no decision made by an "I" to actually create the reasoning and come up with the idea in the first place, it just floated into consciousness.

So: I felt hungry and had a desire for food, and in response thoughts were created in my sub-conscious and bubbled into my consciousness, in my body. These references to self, 'I' and 'my', simply point to where actions are happening, they do not reference a "Self" which has intentions, can make decisions, or has any control. The idea of a "Self" that can control and own things etc. is a construct of the mind, a fabrication, not real. There is no 'I'.

And living in the realization that there is no controlling self is just the same as it ever was. Life has not altered one iota to accommodate the shift that has happened here. Yet from this view the world has turned upside down in a strange and wonderful way. Life without "I"s doing things begs a few questions, and points to some astonishing answers.

[otterrivers]

excellent! just remember the astonishing answers are just further reflections of emptiness. echoes of nothing. only true in the context they are viewed from. I doubt u needed me telling u that, but I enjoyed typing it. ;)

So
6) Anything to add?

[otterrivers]

or was this your answer to 6)?

<"And living in the realization that there is no controlling self is just the same as it ever was. Life has not altered one iota to accommodate the shift that has happened here. Yet from this view the world has turned upside down in a strange and wonderful way. Life without "I"s doing things begs a few questions, and points to some astonishing answers.">

[John86]

just want to say that the "reflections of emptiness. echoes of nothing. " type thoughts have not been experienced here, yet. hope it is not mandatory!
I'm pushed for time again...