In here Sam...

[vinceschubert]

Sam start by telling me about your expectations from being here.

[loftygoal]

hi vince,

my expectations are always high especially with spiritual methods. the results though are often ordinary. pursuing the path of meditation and other practices for the past 6 years with little changes seen in my life. i still get hurt at work and carry the pain home and brood over it. i still have most of the issues i started with. some have reduced but i cant attribute it to my practices alone; i could have grown wiser with experience in these 5 years too.

recently there has been lot of interest in self-inquiry. listening to adyashanti, gangaji and they all make good sense. it is all intellectual though. i am liking the process of honestly questioning myself and deeply looking at the answer without thinking about it. i recently questioned myself why i am on this path. i keep telling people enlightenment is my goal blah blah but honestly speaking if i could get a bargain of no suffering in life i would just take it. i do have to admit that i have the seed and genuine interest in enlightenment though. still removal of suffering is the primary reason that drives me in this path. those repeated painful thoughts, those bullies at work and in world etc...

my expectation from this is as usual high. see through the illusion and overcome my suffering and live happily ever after :) i also feel that may not be possible also. i think i need to make some progress and then this might work but even if i turn out to be a better person at the end i am willing to take it.

[vinceschubert]

Ok Sam, let's start here.
Watch your thought processes and report them after you read below

my expectations are always...

You say some person owns (my) some story about what you want to eventuate (expectations) and that it has happened in the past and so will repeat in the future (always)
Tell me about the processes that occurred.

[loftygoal]

My initial reaction was a feeling of getting caught, looking stupid.

I realize this is a habit of mine; using "always" or trying to define who i am. see again i am saying i always use "always". funny. i act as if i know myself, my patterns very well. whether i am always correct or not is totally dependent on how events turn out and something thats not in my hands.

does a separate person hold this story about my expectations? i am not sure. i think it is more like this; i have a memory of something that happened in the past and basing on that i am forming a belief or opinion that it will always happen this way. thoughts arise (expectations), events happen (expectations met or not met) and another thought arises saying expectations are met or not met. repeated events like this and another thought arises expectations are never met. i believe this to be a true thought basing on my past memory. i think this is what's happening

[vinceschubert]

My initial reaction was a feeling of getting caught, looking stupid.

Good response. When your gut contracts in reaction to something then you know your in the right territory for change to occur.
By the time you're cooked the idea of looking stupid will crack you up. ROFL

i think it is more like this; i have a memory of something that happened in the past and basing on that i am forming a belief or opinion that it will always happen this way. thoughts arise (expectations), events happen (expectations met or not met) and another thought arises saying expectations are met or not met. repeated events like this and another thought arises expectations are never met. i believe this to be a true thought basing on my past memory. i think this is what's happening

if i paraphrase this, watch what is says;
i have thoughts (think) that it is more like this; i have thoughts about thoughts from the past (memories) about something that happened in the past and basing on that i am developing thoughts that have other thoughts that say they are true (belief) or thoughts that are judgemental (opinion) that it will always happen this way. Thoughts arise (expectations) then events happen (thoughts about thoughts of how it might turn out are thought about which in turn has an influence on thoughts that might arise in the the collection of thoughts (future)

What comes to mind when you read this?

[loftygoal]

True. Past Thoughts influence future collection of thoughts. I am wondering what my role is in the whole thing. Can I think a thought? Or do thoughts arise by themselves in reaction to other things happening. It appears to be my choice on what to think about. For example you asked me to ponder but the thoughts occurred only when I chose to ponder. This ability to choose is what makes me feel there is an I and it has control. Actually not in control always. What happens to "I" when not in control. When repeated uncontrollable thoughts arise about a painful event and I dont seem to have control. Then "I" remains in the form of still trying to stop them or wishing the pain goes away. To rephrase "I" stays in the form of choosing to produce thoughts about how to stop the painful thoughts or how to remove painful emotion in the body.

Most of the times though, thoughts randomly arise and I get caught in those.

When solving a problem or when consciously trying to do something it appears as if I have this choice. For example when a thought comes about posting here, I use my past memory to generate new thoughts about opening internet explorer, open website and post it. To rephrase the last line I choose to dwell on my thoughts from past (memory of how i did something in past) which produce thoughts on how to do it now. It all happens pretty fast, body acts quickly on instructions from mind.

[vinceschubert]

beautiful, you are teetering on the edge.

I am wondering what my role is in the whole thing

We are at a fork in the road here. One fork goes down the intellectual, mind dominated path. The other goes down a path of SEEing. A path of Experiencing. This is the path for you to take NOW.
(a hint; if you don't get sucked into the content of thoughts, if a thought is just noted as happening, then you are still on this path. You experience the thought.)
So, as you go down the experiencing path, refer to the statement you made above; "I am wondering what my role is in the whole thing" and FIND (experientially) the I who is wondering, and who owns (my) the role.

[loftygoal]

Thought hard about this but no insights yet. This is the best I could come up with.

My mind and body though not fully in my control, are not fully autonomous either. They seem to need direction. It appears I am that which is giving them the direction or making choices for them.

Also without me (my attention) what my senses take in doesnt seem to register in memory.

[vinceschubert]

Thought hard about this

You took the wrong fork. You went down the intellectual - thought based path.
i asked you specifically to go down the other one.
Consider yourself hit with a Zen stick. Whack!
Read the post again.

Have another go.
DONT THINK about it. LOOK.
FIND (experientially) the I
Do this before reading below.












if the only thing you realise is that you can't do it, then that's ok. We'll come at it from a different angle.

[loftygoal]

I tried to look

"I" cannot be located to be anywhere but despite that there is a strong sense of self. I tried looking into this "sense of self". It seems to be associated with my familiar face mainly. I imagined a rock in the place of my head and tried to look. Then it seems to associate with my familiar body. I tried imagining a totally different person with a different name. It felt new being in that body and being called with the new name but still it is there now with that body, with the concern about protecting & keeping that body happy, enjoying pleasureful feelings in that body.

I tried to imagine myself with an invisible body and an inability to speak (someone suggested this on forum). "I" seems to be in the space where my invisible body is.

[vinceschubert]

"I" seems to be in the space where my invisible body is.

You say "seems to be" Sam.
Take your invisible eye into that place where your invisible body is and shine a bright light into every shadow. LOCATE that I. Hunt it down. LOOK.

[loftygoal]

There is a difference between invisible body and no body

when i imagine an invisible body and I move then the sense of self feels in the invisible space where my body is.

when i imagine no body but just two invisible eyes then the sense of self seems to have reduced a lot. That is because there is nothing I can do as there is no body. There is only seeing or being aware of.

[vinceschubert]

If the sense of self is an echo from past conditioning, if there is actually NO self, just an idea of self. A self constructed of thoughts. If it is a phantom, then how do things work ?

[loftygoal]

The phantom self feels it is in control and body and mind need its direction. Do body and mind really need control? What will happen without it? It doesnt really know. I (as am still identified with this phantom self) dont know what will happen to my body and mind without me.

If I am driving on a highway and suddenly a car comes in front of me. "I" seems to have the control or decision whether to apply brake or not. This decision on which the body's safety depends on seems to be in the hands of "I". Once the illusion is removed, probably the body will apply the brakes by itself. I really dont know.

[vinceschubert]

So how are you going to find out ?

The word you are looking for is Trust.

first Trust, then Experiencing.
or Surrender if you prefer.

The laugh is that you DONT have control.
The organism makes decisions a full 6 seconds before the mind jumps in.
Here check out this BBC doco and you will see what i mean.
Watch your thoughts when the penny drops.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Biv_8xjj8E