For Perrym Getting started

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:25 pm

Hi


.
.. or perhaps .....turns everything the right way up?
Hmmmm definitely 'wrong way up' at the moment'. Strong sensations of anger and mega thought rants arose today.
The no self conclusion is an outrage. 'You can't take me away from me'. 'I've been duped....' When the tornado is less intense it does bring sardonic smile to my lips. I don't love it, precious little equanimity ...its not good news. Actually felt quite murderous. Somehow can understand the anger of the trolls and goblins.

It's a massive NO NO NO NO, to the universe. I seem to want to know what it MEANS. How can it be true? As if everything else I have been doing has been merely tinkering at the edges, and now the real work begins, work like i've never known. So confusion, resistance ... catching myself mid thought and then seeing the non compute nature of the thought inside of the 'no-self' perspective/ can't quite yet bare to say truth yet. And yes there is no one to do the work and no work to do as once a distinction is seen it works you!

Beginning to see/feel the difference between when there is the character doing the character and when there is the experience sensations and awareness of thoughts. Little trails of nihilism ( which i'm quite familiar with) arising too.
For a Try Harder congealment, this is the mincer!

deeply unsettled

A

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perrym
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby perrym » Tue Apr 02, 2013 10:36 pm

Hi Amara,
How can it be true?
How could it be otherwise?

It is so incredibly simple once seen.

So ... is it true? Has there ever been a 'self'? Was it all just a mistake?

x
Perry

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Thu Apr 04, 2013 12:02 am

Hi Perry,

Woke up this morning with the thought 'It's my birthday today' then I smiled because somehow I couldn't really believe that anymore! Does anyone own the day they were born? No. It's a nice story tho. Self does not exist. It is a label. Self exists only in the conversation/thoughts about what is occurring. It is the assumed background /the screen on which thoughts and sensations are projected.

There has never been a self. Yet my actions have been being determined by the belief in a self. And for the most part they still are. When I sit down, get still I can get back to seeing this but most of the day I am not present, not seeing this. Sometimes I can feel myself coming unstuck and there are moments of lucidity. Like in my lucid dream last night where because I knew I was dreaming I could let go into flying because I wanted to. It seems that as soon as I take my attention off it it reverts to auto-pilot. Sometimes there is awareness of auto pilot sometimes not.

Arising and passing. Can definitely see that!

Had a lovely birthday anyway!

XXXX

A

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Thu Apr 04, 2013 10:44 pm

Hi Perry,

Many sensations of aversion and vulnerability and associated thought loops. when stillness is present like now at the end of the day clarity emerges once again. It's all just arising in awareness. Experiencing reactivity more fully because there is less aversion as mostly I remember it's not personal. Doesn't feel as black and white or definitive as many others posts are. Feels like a subtle shift. It's all very much the same with a sliver of something completely different. Still a bit tentative.

Tomorrow going on retreat for a week. Haven't yet worked out whether will be posting. Have sent you a pm and am leaving tomorrow at 9am.

All best
A

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perrym
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby perrym » Thu Apr 04, 2013 11:29 pm

Hi Amara,
Self does not exist. It is a label. Self exists only in the conversation/thoughts about what is occurring. It is the assumed background /the screen on which thoughts and sensations are projected.

There has never been a self.
Wonderful to hear such decisive confidence! I'm really happy for, erm, 'you'! :-)
Yet my actions have been being determined by the belief in a self. And for the most part they still are. When I sit down, get still I can get back to seeing this but most of the day I am not present, not seeing this.
Yes, habits typically roll on - realisation may happen in the blink of an eye, but transformation always seems to takes time.
Doesn't feel as black and white or definitive as many others posts are. Feels like a subtle shift. It's all very much the same with a sliver of something completely different. Still a bit tentative.
Let's pick this up again after your retreat - you'll have had a week more to live with the shift then.

x
Perry

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perrym
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby perrym » Sat Apr 13, 2013 5:12 pm

Hi Amara,

Hope you had a great retreat!

What's cooking?

x
Perry

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Sun Apr 14, 2013 9:36 pm

Hi Perry,

Hope your cough is better!
Kind of surprising that I haven't wanted to get right back in the saddle immediately. There is confusion. The retreat was relaxing and helpful. Linking very nicely with all the work here. There is a lot that is different in my experience.
Found at the end of the retreat saying I couldn't understand where I was. Taking the snake/rope analogy: not in the situation of running screaming away from the rope thinking it was a snake, but neither is there the clarity that I have witnessed in others!' Yep it's 100% rope, woven together like this...'
Vessantara said it sounded like " i'm pretty sure what I saw was a snake....."

There are also feelings of discomfort, stories of separation, aversion, disorientation. Probably the main thing is that I want it to feel NICER. Can't make use of it, make a trophy or anything of it. While I was on retreat it was easier to be with. Today back at home there is some nihilism. Old patterns present not bought into but not vanishing like a puff of smoke either. Motivation has often come from stories of meaning and significance and there is a strange vacuum.

Perhaps what is being experienced is the 'selfing' that no longer is able to do it's job any more. Quite unsettling.

What is the next question after 'Is there a self?'

All Best

A

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:10 pm

Hi,

Today there was fog and a sense of weirdness. Working helped, there is an ease and flow in that arising. Talking with my friend helped. Thanks kg. On the way home sat with sensations to see if there was a story line I could recognise. It came down to 'there should be a point' under enquiry saw there were no points in experience, only in stories. So instead of searching for a point that doesn't exist i'll just experience what is actually present. The fog and weirdness lifted.

XXX
A

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perrym
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby perrym » Mon Apr 15, 2013 10:54 pm

Hi Amara,

I sympathise with your 're-entry' blues - I usually find it a bit rough returning home after a retreat!
There is a lot that is different in my experience.
Can you put any of this into words?
neither is there the clarity that I have witnessed in others
Expectations can make it really hard to see what is ... can you describe what is clear to you right now as you sit here?

Is there just seeing or am 'I' seeing?
Is there just hearing or am 'I' hearing?
Do thoughts arise and pass or am 'I' thinking?
Am 'I' in control or is life just happening spontaneously?
Probably the main thing is that I want it to feel NICER [...] Old patterns present not bought into but not vanishing like a puff of smoke either.
Mmm yes, nicer would be ... nice!

But what expectations are buried here?

Yes, old patterns do continue at first, and yes, they can indeed be even more uncomfortable than before, because their 'falseness' is obvious. In the long run, they do drop away, and this 'unbinding' does reduce suffering ... but in the short run, just recognise that all this is happening without a doer of the deed, and know that it will pass.

Mettabhavana can help too :-)

Very best wishes,

Perry

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perrym
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby perrym » Mon Apr 15, 2013 11:09 pm

Hi Amara,

messages crossed, so I missed your second post...
there were no points in experience, only in stories. So instead of searching for a point that doesn't exist i'll just experience what is actually present.
YES!

x
Perry

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:45 pm

Hi

Noticings arising significantly.

My partner told me about an unfortunate event in the family about something i had a strong opinion about and he had not taken my advice. When he spoke my body felt very open and the words felt like an almighty punch to the solar plexus. Within minutes sensations of different aspects of experience shutting down. Anger. Then again tried to find the belief that was holding this pattern in place. 'people shouldn't be......' People shouldn't die....' and Really....is that true? And all the drama left the situation, all the anxiety, I even saw that death does not exist in direct experience.

A couple of quotes also helping:
"If it's happening slowly with nothing special then it is the flavour of no-self" Vessantra and something Mad biker said about not waiting for the final carrot....

My sense is that the presumptive command control centre of Thought has had a significant aspect of its mechanism disarmed. I can now distinguish between what is real and what is not. (After a little inquiry when the going gets tough and the 'selfinging' or 'othering' is strong) It's kind of the same as I've always known only on another level.

No self thinking
No self listening
No self seeing
No self tasting
No self controlling.....

Changing everything and nothing.

XXXXXXXXX

Happiness arising!

A

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perrym
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby perrym » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:51 pm

Hi Amara,

Wonderful!

I'm so happy, just wonderful!

Would you like to look at the 'six questions'? They are a great exercise in exploring the shift ....

Or anything else you'd like to raise?

x

Perry

P.S. ... did I mention? This makes me very happy!

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:24 pm

Hi Perry,

yes indeed i feel i'm ready for the 6 questions! Feeling very stable and calm and quiet.

Thank you so much for your guidance. Much much gratitude.

Amaragita

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perrym
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby perrym » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:59 pm

Hi Amara,

You might find it easier to answer one or two at a time....

OK, here they are :-)

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Do you decide, intend, choose, control events in Life? Do you make anything happen? Give examples from your experience.

6) Anything to add?

x
Perry

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Amara G
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Re: For Perrym Getting started

Postby Amara G » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:59 am

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No, none of these things exist in reality, they only exist as words concepts. The word pen refers to something you can actually pick up and use. It has from and substance. There is no form or substance to 'self' 'me' 'I'.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.
The illusion of separate self occurs as a result of language. all sentient beings have a survival drive to push away what appears dangerous and draw to it what is believed will help it to survive. When a child is born it is just experiencing, there are things it responds to like hunger and pain but there is no awareness of an entity doing this. No self reflexive consciousness. Gradually we are taught and pick up that there are separate entities. 'This is me and mine...... that is you and yours' This takes quite a long time to inculcate like the notion of time and as i have observed with my children needs quite a bit of reinforcement until it finally 'catches' or sticks/ is believed.

So we move from sensations, reaction to sensations, to awareness of the sensations and reactions and we are taught to label this 'me'. As thinking becomes more complex it begins to label sensations, reactions, cognition, and the thinking process itself as 'me'. The initial impulse to turn away from and towards whatever is threatening or appearing to aid survival grows as the appropriation process of labelling me and mine gradually applies to more and more things.
(it can be seen on an individual level but also in the evolution of humanity. Initially there was no thought this is 'my country' or 'my land' or even 'my life')
I kind of want to call it a 'technical error' that has got tangled into the survival adaptation. But it also seems to be a necessary part of our evolution. It is helpful part of the developmental process like those protective plastic sheaths they use on saplings to prevent them being eaten by deer. But at some point it will start to restrict even kill the tree!

It is a case of mistaken identity (or identifying) . Because it has been part of experience and we have survived, the 'i' identity has been logged as necessary to survival. This is why when we question or challenge it's existence there is so much fear and a massive surge to protect it by continually trying to reinforcing it's 'goodness' or 'badness' or both!
But the very thing we think is protecting us is actually causing our suffering. ha ha ha ha ho!

How it works in my experience is that sensations arise and i give them a label. 'I am angry' then to protect the I a reason 'out there' is found for the anger. Then thinking comes in with blaming self or other which creates more tension and tightening due to fear and perceived threat. Its like the being starts to have an allergic reaction to itself it becomes more and more inflamed which is painful but at least it appears that the non existent I has been protected.

more to come....


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