Guidance please

[nenad]

Hi Matt.

No problem.


Yes, look during any activity:
Can there be found anyone/anything doing it? Or just the activity?


Best wishes
Nenad

[zomajo]

Warm greetings Nenad.

I have now returned home, but shall not be at home much over the Easter weekend.

Whilst away I was bathing my son who is 19months old. Whilst we were playing "I" observed him and there was noticing of tiny movements such as his tiny thumb adjusting to get a grip on the toy he was holding and movement around his eyes etc. It was seen that these movements were just happening with no control. It was a subtle and brief moment. Following that which I think happened on Tuesday night things have been light. there have been extended periods where little thought has arisen and there have been periods where "i" am totally involved in whatever activity is occuring, but when thoughts and emotions arise they are noticed and then they pass. There has been less thoughts of the future with more of a knowing that the future will take care of itself when the time comes.

It is clear that expectations of some big shift or change are not realistic in fact things have not changed at all. It does not even seem that there is a different perspective only that things are not so personal. I would like more time to see how things unfold for a few days, but I can see that control is an illusion.

It is not like a permanent thought/belief/knowledge in place that I do not exist. Much subtler than that, like when a stressful thought arises the thought occurs and runs its course and then it passes and it is known that it is only a mere thought and it has no real baring on reality.

Other experiences is a more readily relaxed feeling and brief moments of excitement and joy, but these are just as fleeting as other thoughts and emotions.

How does this all sound?

[zomajo]

I am not sure I have seen. At points it feels like I have and at other times it feels like there is still self but then it passes. Can u help me get some clarity please?

[nenad]

Warm regards Matt,


We are in no hurry to get this done. You are going in right direction and you are doing great! No need to worry about whether you see or not. Just keep looking at this reality that is already here.


When people have glimpses like the one you described, they often tend to focus on the consequences of it - emotional changes etc., and forget what was it that triggered the glimpse in the first place. It can be useful to remember what was it, and then keep working in that direction.

Whilst away I was bathing my son who is 19months old. Whilst we were playing "I" observed him and there was noticing of tiny movements such as his tiny thumb adjusting to get a grip on the toy he was holding and movement around his eyes etc. It was seen that these movements were just happening with no control.

.
Good. Keep looking when you are with your son or with other people: Do they have any control over their movements or does it all just happen, without any control?


Look into this during your activities:

How does illusion of control work? What makes it seem so real?


Happy Easter!

[zomajo]

Hope you had a good Easter Nenad.
When looking at movement of others I can see that movement takes place on its own. This is particularly noticeable with small insignificant movements like blinking, slight hand movements etc.
The illusion of control occurs on a constant basis with whatever is happening, for instance the hands type and the mind labels “I am typing”. When observed it can be seen that typing just happens, but if this is not observed the labelling continues and is accepted, in my current experience anyhow.
Where the illusion seems stronger to me is when a thought comes “I will wash my car this weekend” then at some point over the weekend the car gets washed leaving the feeling of control “I washed the car as I had planned”. The thought however does not necessarily determine the action. To use the same example the thought “I will wash my car this weekend” comes, but after the weekend has passed the car may not have been washed. This can then leave a sense of suffering with thoughts like “such and such happened without my planning and I did not have time to wash my car as I had planned” this thought may cause stress, but it there is no reason for it to if there is no control over events. It is hard however to accept there is no control when thoughts come and then the actions of the thoughts transpire like washing the car. If there is not control this means that the mind has an ability to predict what will happen to a certain degree although not necessarily exactly when. This is where it all gets a bit sticky for me. Often when I mentally plan things out they then occur giving a sense of control. If there is no control then how come thoughts are able to give an reasonably accurate prediction of what will happen in the next hour / day etc? Is this just conditioning from undergoing the same patterns?

[nenad]

Thanks Matt, I hope you enjoyed Easter too!

Sorry for the late answer.

When looking at movement of others I can see that movement takes place on its own.

Yes, it happens on its own.

The illusion of control occurs on a constant basis with whatever is happening, for instance the hands type and the mind labels “I am typing”. When observed it can be seen that typing just happens, but if this is not observed the labelling continues and is accepted, in my current experience anyhow.

It is always observed. There is just a thought saying "It wasn't observed a moment ago".
But, can you ever spot a moment when this is not observed?

Where the illusion seems stronger to me is when a thought comes “I will wash my car this weekend” then at some point over the weekend the car gets washed leaving the feeling of control “I washed the car as I had planned”. The thought however does not necessarily determine the action. To use the same example the thought “I will wash my car this weekend” comes, but after the weekend has passed the car may not have been washed. This can then leave a sense of suffering with thoughts like “such and such happened without my planning and I did not have time to wash my car as I had planned” this thought may cause stress, but it there is no reason for it to if there is no control over events. It is hard however to accept there is no control when thoughts come and then the actions of the thoughts transpire like washing the car. If there is not control this means that the mind has an ability to predict what will happen to a certain degree although not necessarily exactly when. This is where it all gets a bit sticky for me. Often when I mentally plan things out they then occur giving a sense of control. If there is no control then how come thoughts are able to give an reasonably accurate prediction of what will happen in the next hour / day etc? Is this just conditioning from undergoing the same patterns?

Yes,it can be called conditioning.

What are thoughts?

[zomajo]

Thoughts are reactions. Labels, judgements, opinions that arise based on what is experienced in reality. There is no control over what thoughts arise, nor can they be stopped. They come, they go. They do give rise to emotion but that too comes then goes. Last night observing thought a sense of thought arising in space then fading only be replaced by another. When I say "In space" that is to say that In between the thoughts there is nothing.

The thoughts that arise may in turn cause emotion but the thoughts cannot control experience, only label it. As there is no control over what thoughts arise how can they provide any control? They cannot they only claim to.

Where now nenad?

Kind regards

[nenad]

Kind regards Matt,

There is no control over what thoughts arise, nor can they be stopped.

Right.

When I say "In space" that is to say that In between the thoughts there is nothing.

Tell me more about this. How is nothing experienced?

As there is no control over what thoughts arise how can they provide any control? They cannot they only claim to.

Right.

Where now nenad?

Look:

Labels, judgements, opinions that arise based on what is experienced in reality.

What is reality?

[zomajo]

Tell me more about this. How is nothing experienced?

When the eyes are closed thoughts come from nowhere and then disappear into nowhere. When there are no thoughts there appears a space, an emptiness between the thoughts. That is not to say that nothing is experienced as when this happens there is still hearing, feeling perhaps emotion.

What is reality?

Reality is what is being experienced. Sounds that are heard / hearing is real, objects that are seen / seeing is real, sensations that are felt like hot, cold, wet, dry / feeling is real, physical objects that can be touched and seen are real like a chair, a body, a butterfly.

The more tricky points here are thoughts and emotions.

Thoughts are real. They arise there and give voice to some opinion, judgement, comment. They are invariably about something that has happened, something that is happening currently or something that might happen. They are therefore essentially just labels attached to what is being experienced in reality. The thoughts are real, but what is not real is the content of the thought as this is just beleif / opinions / judgements of what is real.

A thought about the past is a label that has been given to a past experience and then stored in memory. The memory therefore cannot relate to something in reality as it is just a lable attached to something that no longer exists in reality.

Thoughts about the present experience are labels that are habitually attached to what already is, these labels have no effect on what happens as it is already happening. They are essentially reactions to the experience of life.

Thoughts about the future are projections of what might happen based on previous events. The mind choses the most likely outcomes of events based on previous experience and then when these outcomes arise as thoughts their corresponding emotions will arise also for example "if I leave my umbrella at home today it will rain whilst I am out" this may then lead to annoyance over an event/experience that has not even occured.

The content of thought therefore is not real, but with the thought itself being undoubtedly real it is easy to see how the content of the thought can be believed. The thoughts innevitably also come from an "i" perspective which gives the whole experience a personal feel adding to the illusion.

Emotions feel personal as an experience that occurs leads to pride, sadness, anger, joy what ever the emotion might be. Seemingly simultaneously thoughts arise labelling these emotions as "mine" so where the emotions are real as they are felt in reality, in the present moment. The sense of ownership of these thoughts is not real.

What the sticking point for me however is the uniqueness of experience. The sights, sounds, thoughts, emotions etc that are experience by "me" are unique to "me". Nobody has nor will they ever have the same exact experience that "I" have. This produces a feeling or seperateness / uniqueness / specialness.

kind regards
M

[nenad]

That is not to say that nothing is experienced as when this happens there is still hearing, feeling perhaps emotion.

Right.

Reality is what is being experienced. Sounds that are heard / hearing is real, objects that are seen / seeing is real, sensations that are felt like hot, cold, wet, dry / feeling is real, physical objects that can be touched and seen are real like a chair, a body, a butterfly.

Look at sensations: How is a sensation experienced as hot, cold, wet, dry...?
What makes some physical sensations (colors, shapes, texture etc.) chair?
What makes some physical sensations (hunger, thirst, pressure etc.) body?

Kind regards
Nenad

[zomajo]

There is seeing, feeling, thoughts, tastes, hearing and emotions. All are experienced then they are labelled by thoughts as good/bad, hot/cold, tree/chair, pleasant/unpleasant etc. this labelling is so ingrained that it is automatic, compulsive.

At first I was not sure what u
Meant by ur last response, but then I looked and saw that it is all labels. Yes what is seen is seen, but the thought that comes "it's a chair", "it's nice weather outside" are just labels.

Can a feeling therefore be pleasant or unpleasant? Hmmm not sure as pain will still feel bad and getting into a warm bath will still feel pleasant. I guess there is just no need to label it. Just experience with no label.

I will stay with this for a while, but feel free to post back in the meantime.

Thanks
Matt

[nenad]

Nice.

There is seeing, feeling, thoughts, tastes, hearing and emotions. All are experienced then they are labelled by thoughts as good/bad, hot/cold, tree/chair, pleasant/unpleasant etc.

Yes.

At first I was not sure what u
Meant by ur last response, but then I looked and saw that it is all labels.

Yes, that is how this works - by looking :)
Good!

Yes what is seen is seen, but the thought that comes "it's a chair", "it's nice weather outside" are just labels.

Yes, just labels

What the sticking point for me however is the uniqueness of experience. The sights, sounds, thoughts, emotions etc that are experience by "me" are unique to "me".

Look: What is it that experiences sights, sounds, thoughts, emotions etc. ?

Nobody has nor will they ever have the same exact experience that "I" have.

What does the word I in this sentence point to?

[zomajo]

On my phone again so no quote function. I will respond to both ur questions in turn.

What is that experiences? I cannot find anything. There is a sensation in the foot which is occurring in the foot, I am not a foot!

There is seeing which appears to happen in th eyes as there is some sensation around the eyes, but then what is seen is all around. What is seen is seen from the location of the eyes in other words the viewpoint that is experienced stems from the location of the eyes but what is seen is everywhere within view. Seeing a tree in the distance and my hand in front of my face is the same it is just seeing. There is no person or thing operating the seeing or what is seen it is just seen.

Sounds are strange. A sound comes from a person talking on the train and the sound is where that person is yet it is heard here. There is hearing and sounds but it's like there is no boundary between the hearing and what is heard. Hard to put into words.

Thoughts arise as a result of what is experienced. For example someone says something that triggers a thought about a past experience, a memory. The memory is played out. Then a question is asked about who or what experiences thoughts then there are thoughts about thoughts. The thoughts are experienced like a silent voice commenting on what occurs or recalling the past or predicting the future (inaccurately). The conditioning wants to say the thoughts are experienced in the head but its more ethereal than that, they are just there. Do "I" experience the thoughts? Thoughts are experienced and the thoughts might say or imply that they are "my" voice reasoning or judging but they are reactions to experience and not the maker or experience.

Emotions are felt in the chest/heart area. It is not always clear in "my" experience what the specific emotion is only that a feeling/sensation has arisen there. More of a physical sensation than an emotional feeling, but the emotions do alter how the rest of the body functions. Thoughts about emotions lead to thoughts that have previously caused anger to arise. There is a increased intensity in the sensation in the chest, but it is just felt. Noticeably there are no further angry thoughts that follow which has been the experience previously.

"Nobody has the same experience as I do"

In this sentence the I is a label for the collective of sensations that are experienced. "I see out the train window" but the seeing out the train window and all that is seen is one field of vision/seeing. The experiences that are felt by one person may be unique but the everyone else around is in the same experience despite them feeling it differently. The fact that the sights, noises, thoughts and emotions experienced in this location may be unique to this place and moment in time does not mean that they belong to a me.

There were thoughts of what I would write in this post before I wrote it but when it was written it came out differently and in much more depth than what was anticipated. Great surprise, but then not really as Matt has no control over what he writes. Have an important meeting in the city this afternoon, I wonder what I will say? Haha.

[nenad]

Very nice Matt :)

Experience what is happening for a day or so, then tell me about it.

Warm regards Nenad :)

[nenad]

Hi Matt, how is everything today?