For Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi,

This might not be the best time to be working on the illusion of self, but I'll leave that for you to judge .... feel free to put this on hold as and when necessary.

Thank you. The mum roller-coaster is fairly ongoing… feels right to continue.

.... but that said, it seems that the process is unfolding anyway :-)

YES, to stop it would require quite a lot of effort I think!
Notice I have kind of being putting pressure on myself with the process though… feeling a time pressure, overly taking on 'must post every day' etc… old habits. Note to non-self: relaxed and easy is ok!

it is actually really valuable to seek to re-precipitate the seeing by retracing the steps that have previously led to seeing.

That makes total sense.

playing around with the kinds of reflection / investigation that resulted in seeing before, retracing the steps that led to seeing. You may well already be doing this, I don't know...

Playing around yes, but haven't properly retraced the steps, will try that.

Repeated seeing is essential if the knowledge is to become an intimate, integrated aspect of everyday experience.

Makes sense... reassuring.

Re: 'No I to be bad" = the message of Vajrasattva
Yes! Was there when chanting in the night on retreat, when old guilt arose.

take the opportunity to investigate the qualities of the old self-view

So I spent some time trying on various 'I am statements'. I am afraid of anger, I am bad, I am a dedicated spiritual practitioner, I am angry with x friend, I am grumpy. Felt very fruitful, some of them just sounded wrong, the 'I am' bit was making no sense. Some of them stuck more but softened with more looking. 'I am angry with x friend' was quite sticky but imagined Byron Katie again, her gaze and question 'Is it true?' and it shifted somewhat and brought wave of energy in the body. Interesting to see that 'I am angry' is easier to see through than 'I am angry with x', makes total sense, 'I' sense is in dependence on 'other'.

x Deejay

[perrym]

Hi Deejay,

the 'I am' bit was making no sense

Ha, lovely, exactly ... what could it possibly mean?

You've got some really effective ways of working at the moment - I don't think I've anything to add, except to say how much I enjoy reading what you have to say!

Looking forward to the next instalment :-)

x
Perry

[Deejay]

Hi Perry,

Looking forward to the next instalment :-)

Thank you!

Fear is gold - where there is fear, the illusion is thin ... exploring the fear, have you a sense of what it is protecting, what it is averting attention from, what is just beneath it?

Evoked the fear (easily done, and always mainly just sensations in belly). Turned towards it. Again found underneath it heart and desire to surrender. Did lots of deep diving with this and felt v fruitful, like things were integrating, partly below the conceptual radar. Still don't feel clear, though, about what is being protected. Re surrender, could feel the fear of it, but also the possibility of surrender felt much nearer than it has done. I could feel that's because there is more faith.

Can feel the New Scientist article playing a part, specially stuff in there showing our sense of this body as 'mine' is a construct which can fail under certain conditions. Also the deeper understanding that 'stuff just happening' is conditionality... watching that today brought this quiet astonishment again.

Also finding the enquiry process itself having its own momentum is a convincing example of no I in control.

Felt less pushing to surrender than have in the past (obviously total contradiction there in pushing to surrender!) Now more confidence that when conditions are right complete surrender will arise.

But. Also came up against this knotty thing: felt block to surrender in form of thought: what if everything unravels and I can't keep it together to do what's needed with Mum in next weeks/months?? Mum worse again today, and could feel some level of denial in myself re her... think I do feel my energy pulled in two directions. Also very difficult to post about this stuff, on an open internet forum, as feels SO personal and raw, but of course much of people's posts is similarly personal and raw. Big fear of seeming callous or uncaring... Didn't want to write that! Ha! Good to investigate the 'I' in that. But, need to reflect a bit on how to proceed. Some scarcity mentality, grasping, enquiry has got to be now, I've started this process, etc... despite what you have said. And so unknown how it's going to go with mum.. but not looking good. Equally, unknown how this process is going to go, might it actually help, maybe equally likely? Am i just landing on a really really persuasive argument for backing off?! Specially as it arose out of deep diving with the fear. Confusion! Might try a Byron Katie on it.

x Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi Perry,
Ok in the night it clarified. There is no conflict. There is some denial going on... v good to see that and allow in the truth more...focus on LU has somewhat diverted attention... but it doesn't need to. Both are about truth and love... making space for love. Phew!

Will do the 'retracing steps' thing, but the investigating self-views via 'I am' statements still feeling very fruitful.

An 'I am x' comes up. Sometimes when I inquire it's as if it 'switches' between believing it and not believing it. A bit like the figure-ground picture which can be seen as a vase or as two heads facing each other, but not both simultaneously. Trying to look more closely and see what conditions that switch, see the self illusion clearly as dependent arising.

'I am feeling cold'. The 'I am' bit felt immediately shaky, and then the bit in the New Scientist article about identification with the body as mine came to mind and further wobbled things. Queasiness as usual.

'I am driven/obsessive'. 'I am' feels like a flat battery, no charge. When get to 'driven, obsessive', that has a charge, there's some sort of energetic tracking back to the 'I' which I can't quite see, it's too quick. But if I then look at present experience again the whole sentence loses charge. There is just sensation, 'driven/obsessive' is an idea, an abstraction. Then the thought 'yes, but a useful abstraction'. Yes, ok, if not taken as true.

'I am stupid'. Just an inchoate sense of an old neural pathway being reactivated. When said it again (rather than it just arising), there was a referring back to past experience that supplied 'proof'. That took me to:

'I am [my name]' which jogged the sense of my 'autobiographical self' - me as my 'story'. This felt a bit convincing for a while, until I recollected all the 'other' in those experiences - all dependent arisings - and the I sense hollowed out again. On the retreat I recalled Thich Nhat Hanh: 'A table consists entirely of non-table elements': applying that to 'I' was effective.

'I don't like x'. Instantly obvious that the 'don't like' was a comic-book-like sketch which was ridiculous to describe complex dependent arisings.

x Deejay

[perrym]

Hi,

I've been rather ill today, I'll get back to you tomorrow when I'm more with it!

P

[Deejay]

Ooh sorry to hear that... hope you can rest up.
x Deejay

[Deejay]

Dear Perry,
More to say… rather a lot for you to read! No hurry.

Yesterday in town… the visual field thing was really vivid, the sense of space for other. Also it was blending with seeing conditionality - I was looking at it all happening around me and feeling peace, amazement at the intricacy.

Been in an ongoing tussle with someone internally and it's evoked a strong cluster of self habit energies: righteousness, sharp sarcastic critical voice, ill-will, poor me, desire to sulk. Trying to notice the familiarity that you mentioned, how it makes the views convincing. Keep loosening the views and then same thoughts pop up again.

Noticing identification with the body. But washing up… was aware of the body experience as interaction with non-body: feedback loop between body and water, brush, crockery.

This morning. Retraced the first bit of the in-the-night retreat enquiry. Just simply looking inside. Again found space.

Then saw clearly my habit of wanting achievement with awareness of its roots.

Then saw really clearly how there is no 'I' to achieve anything. It felt really clear.
Soft, quiet. Peace, relief. Pride/grasping at it thoughts came in and they just felt tiring. The phrase from Shaila Catherine - 'this exhausting story of "I"' - has been with me a lot in the last year.

There was a glimpse of insight re time - present moment - can't recall it clearly now.

Able to let it into my heart. Felt sense of nothing to be afraid of. But then felt really aware of an internal level of 'body armouring', holding onto myself. I felt it earlier in the 'No, no, no'. Somehow deeper than specific habits of holding on in the body, felt like a whole rusty iron frame inside. In the way of surrendering. 'Tried' to surrender! Writing it now, I can see the absurdity, again. Evoked various inspiring supportive and kind beings including my mum to help me feel able to surrender more fully. Direct gaze again with Byron Katie and she basically told me to chill out and it would happen when ready/conditions came together.

x Deejay

[perrym]

Hi Deejay,

It doesn't seem that you need a whole lot of help right now, but I'll just reflect a few things back....

Evoked the fear [...] Still don't feel clear, though, about what is being protected.

There are other questions that can help open up fear... what is being held on to? what is doing the holding? what could be lost? what is being pushed away? what is pushing away?

what if everything unravels and I can't keep it together to do what's needed with Mum in next weeks/months??

To be honest, this worry is not totally unfounded ... the irruption of insight can unhinge day to day life for a while... however, there does seem to be a difference between the 'breakdown' that some people go through as a result of insight and the kind of breakdown that happens through psychological illness. With post insight 'breakdown', at least in my experience, day to day life falls apart partly because most of it doesn't seem very important, but where something genuinely important does crop up, the ability to deal with it arises too - in other words, it is not as incapacitating as a psychological illness, despite some superficial similarities. I wouldn't expect you to become incapable of doing what you need to do for your mum. In any event, the process has its own momentum now, it is probably going to play out whether or not 'you' think it is a good idea!

the investigating self-views via 'I am' statements still feeling very fruitful.

this seems to be working really well - being able to observe the belief switching on and off is excellent, a great way to "see the self illusion clearly as dependent arising", as you put it

Then saw really clearly how there is no 'I' to achieve anything. It felt really clear.
Soft, quiet. Peace, relief. Pride/grasping at it thoughts came in and they just felt tiring. The phrase from Shaila Catherine - 'this exhausting story of "I"' - has been with me a lot in the last year.

lovely!

'Tried' to surrender!

locating the holding on can be more effective ... when the holding is really seen, surrender happens spontaneously

I'm really happy for you and what is unfolding, though it must be complex with the situation with your mum developing at the same time

best wishes

Perry

[Deejay]

Hi Perry,

where something genuinely important does crop up, the ability to deal with it arises too

Thank you, that is reassuring.

Mum is fading, with her, it feels peaceful here, good backup.

Enquiry has felt very natural, watching everything unfolding, eg when driving. Want to come back later to your qs re fear and holding on, make total sense.

Earlier there was more 'but, but' - but with an actual issue now. Again about choosing, which has been such a burning issue for yonks. For a while was content with 'there is choosing but no chooser.' Content with not really understanding how that could work, despite seeing choice happening. But today have been tussling, tussling to understand how it could work. I guess the sense of making choice is something I've held to be almost the essence of being human, so hard to jettison. At some moments thought I'd glimpsed it... we are wedded to idea that choosing is an attribute of the individual being, but actually it's an attribute of conditionality, arises out of conditions... so information is processed in to the mind sense, some of it is stored, then processes arise that involve it being weighed up... there are volitions that arise in dependence on conditions... but... but... surely that is synthesised by something?? Otherwise where is the 'openness', the possibility of things going different ways, without which there is no choice? Feel as if I flip between an intuitive understanding and confusion! Please help!

Thanks again for all your support,
Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi Perry, just sent you a PM.
Dj

[perrym]

Hi Deejay,

Sorry to hear about your mum, I realise that you may well suddenly break off from here, that's fine

today have been tussling, tussling to understand how it could work.

Of course, the tussling itself is really interesting too ... could you have chosen not to? Is there any "I" driving the tussling? Where is the "I" that needs to reach a conclusion?

But on the subject of the tussling:

I guess the sense of making choice is something I've held to be almost the essence of being human, so hard to jettison.

As long as there is belief in "I", the options seem to be "I freely choose" or "I am swept along, out of control" ... neither of these options really fit the bill when "I" is seen to be an illusion.... so, as you say

it's an attribute of conditionality, arises out of conditions... so information is processed in to the mind sense, some of it is stored, then processes arise that involve it being weighed up... there are volitions that arise in dependence on conditions

I'm not sure if this is speaking from theory or observation, but yes, this is all observable - watch decision making happening and see...

... but... but... surely that is synthesised by something?? Otherwise where is the 'openness', the possibility of things going different ways, without which there is no choice?

Here are some thoughts that might give a fresh angle:

What does 'openness' mean in experience? What is its opposite?

If the processes of weighing up etc that you describe above happen under pressure, or without awareness, or in the presence of overwhelming craving, then a different decision is likely to arise than if it all happens in the context of calm, spacious mindfulness, yes? .... so does this mean that there is 'more choice' (or freedom) in the second scenario? Does there need to be any kind of synthesising 'free entity' for this to be true?

Is the 'wrong' choice ever made deliberately? Motives may be murky and complex, but when choosing eventually happens, is anything other than the 'best option' ever chosen?

If you always choose what seems best at the time, then what does it mean to have choice?

x
Perry

[Deejay]

Hi Perry,
Thank you... realise I was wanting you to just tell me how it is, to resolve the tussling, but of course I have to look again more closely at my own direct experience. Sense it might take a while with this one, and am relaxing enquiry for the time being to just allow space for things with mum... Want to mostly let enquiry arise naturally if it does.
So, back more intermittently/when time right.
x Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi Perry,

What does 'openness' mean in experience? What is its opposite?

Openness means that different outcomes are possible, that even an absolutely massive computer could not predict the outcome. Ok, in experience: there would be an experience of more than one outcome being possible.

So if I look now. Can I choose not to tussle with this problem, and go to bed? Yes, it feels as if now that that thought has arisen, I can. Or maybe that choice got made before the thought in which the possibility of bed was more consciously recognised... I don't know.

But then the thought came that I could override that decision, and I am doing that because still typing - even though the urge to bed is still being felt. Now I notice the urge to bed and the urge to carry on tussling and feel choice is possible and am choosing bed! Or equally I could say… the urge to bed is noticed, the urge to tussle is noticed, and bed is chosen. Ok, I can see no I is required.

The opposite of openness would be that we are automata. When I was looking today at choosing all just happening without me or my will needed, I did start to feel rather like a Stepford wife. Was v uncomfortable, shaky in the legs. Had an image of those Wives in the supermarket with their shopping trollies. But I doubt Stepford Wives would feel shaky in the legs, so that's reassuring. Also recognising that there is responsiveness helps. I think it's part of what I am looking for when I use the word 'openness'.

When I try to think this through…my mind feels as if it gets stuck in a perpetual loop and wants to crash. Then sometimes I get an intuitive glimpse and the tussling stops.

Feels as if choice qs need lots of time… whole thing right on the button of my resistance. Also I feel as if still have other qs that I want to return to at some point - eg those other ways of exploring fear.

x Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi Perry,

If the processes of weighing up etc that you describe above happen under pressure, or without awareness, or in the presence of overwhelming craving, then a different decision is likely to arise than if it all happens in the context of calm, spacious mindfulness, yes? .... so does this mean that there is 'more choice' (or freedom) in the second scenario?

I've had the model that mindfulness means we can make real, ie conscious choices. But on the retreat mindfulness started to seem like less of a massive deal - because some awareness is always there anyway. Looking today at the above q when mulling/making decisions. Mindfulness of body meant I noticed the impetus to go one way was underlain by anxiety. In seeing this, that volition lost force, though following it wasn't ruled out. Seeing the anxiety then meant I spotted a strong habit energy underlying the anxiety: guilt, feeling wrong and bad when faced with conflicting demands, that in choosing to respond to one and not the other, I am being selfish. Seeing this freed things up/reduced tension. Basically mindfulness meant more responsiveness and clarity. But that didn't feel like more choice exactly. Need to look some more.

Talking to a friend about it: beehives, termite mounds... collective decision-making, not reducible to any of the individual insects.

Feeling that many cherished concepts - choice, control, potency, responsibility - have probably got to go, at least temporarily, because so hard to unhook them from the illusion of I, their meaning for me includes that.

At one point today, aware of labels in general as not reality. Shakiness. Emptiness seems to be more at the fore ... but when I remember to look at fullness, eg the visual field thing, it is right there, just forgetting to do it.

All best,
Deejay

[Deejay]

Hi Perry,
Things seem to have stabilised with my Mum... seems she has some more life left in her!

Is the 'wrong' choice ever made deliberately? Motives may be murky and complex, but when choosing eventually happens, is anything other than the 'best option' ever chosen?

No, the 'wrong' choice wouldn't be made deliberately.

If you always choose what seems best at the time, then what does it mean to have choice?

I don't know! I no longer know what choice means. But it's not currently doing my head in, and I am comforting myself that at least there IS responsiveness!

There are other questions that can help open up fear... what is being held on to? what is doing the holding? what could be lost? what is being pushed away? what is pushing away?

I found today that surprisingly one thing that is being held on to is this basic badness, 'I am bad' habit. I felt disappointed that this was still there, as had had that moment of clear seeing through the 'I am bad'. I kept looking at it and finding it had charge. Felt tremendous tension, nausea, holding on coupled with real exhaustion with the exhausting story of I. Also felt the impetus to go into massive doubt fest - 'I saw this clearly before and now can't, I'm not getting anywhere...I'm just kidding myself'...etc; but spotted these were just thoughts.

Tried a Byron Katie, imagining her etc: 'I am bad: is it true?' and somehow I just found myself unable to say 'no'. Not that I could actually find any 'I' anywhere... it was hard to tell what the resistance was but I couldn't or somehow wouldn't see through. Then later I could again see the absurdity of the statement: that bad is just a label, that I can't find any bad in the present moment, that when it has a charge it's by virtue of looking in the past for 'proof', that it's only thoughts that are providing proof, that there is no 'I' to be found anyway and even if there were, to say it was this one thing that is just an abstraction would be crazy.

Very aware at the moment of identification with seeking. Longing to drop that exhausting story.. all this pushing myself, so much of the time. I see the identification with 'my thread'.

This morning was trying to apply the 'visual field' thing to other senses, and it was blissful at times. Visual still strongest though.

x Deejay