Looking for a guide

[jon45]

I am 67 and have been practising Budhist meditation since 1970. For the first decade I had support and instruction but after that I relied on my own resources. In 2005 my life changed when I retired and moved from a busy city to a quiet countryside location. Here I was able to meditate more, read and reflect. I then came across the writing of 2 Thai Forest monks who made things look a little different; that the meditation process was natural and naturally unfolding and very much in the present.
I realised my outlook had been filled with expectations and that what I had been doing was leading to more and more refinement rather than breaking through. What I have read so far of "Gateless Gatecrashers" has inspired me.
My area of focus at the moment is Awarenes. I think I identify 3 experiences; one awareness that is emeshed in the thinking/feeling processes, that is at one with them and I call me; another that stands outside the thinking /feeling and can watch them arise and fall away. This makes them slow up but eventually they regain more influence. And a third awareness that seems further from thinking/feeling that can dwell in itself without an agenda. But again this experience gradually falls back.
Thanks for reading this, Jonathan

[Nina]

Hy Jonathan i would love to walk with you through the gate.
I am sure that living in the country gives you so much incite.
Little about me I came through this process last year and have worked with one young man and he is now through.
He also identified with meditation.
This is a very natural process should you wish me to join you in your journey i would be happy to do so.
The process is simple.
Please indicate if i can help
Love Nina

[jon45]

Hi Nina,
Many thanks for replying....I would appreciate your help. Best Wishes Jonathan

[Nina]

A few ground rules -

1. Post at least once a day, if you cannot post, or need more time, let me know.
2. Be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.
3. Answer from personal experience only.
4. Read the disclaimer on the Liberation Unleashed main page - http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Understand that I will be guiding you, rather than teaching you, and the more you put into this process the more you will get out of it.

If you are happy to agree to the above, let me know and we can begin.


In this process you will find the following useful –

1. How to use the quote function. This will help greatly when posting your responses to my questions - viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

2. The book Gateless Gatecrashers. You will find stories here of those who have passed through the gate.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/LU_Books.html

When you have looked at the above and agreed with the above we can start

Love and Light
Nina

[jon45]

Thanks,
I've read the disclaimer and agree with the first three points.
I'll try to get the hang of the quote button.
And I've read a good part of the Gatecrashers book.
Best Wishes, Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonahan,
Nina has someone who has joined her on another thread. So if it's ok with you I will be your guide here.

Assuming that is ok, please outline what your expectations are from this process.
Also, what time zone are you in? I am in the UK.

Kind Regards,
Ray.

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
Thanks for writing.
My expectations? To create a positive dialogue and maybe an unravelling of something. Exploring and maybe finding things clearer.
I'm in the UK too.
Best Wishes Jonathan

[ray]

Thanks Jonathan,

Some clear straightforward expectations! Clarity is a major aspect of what goes on here.
I see you were born before they invented the transistor :) so computers may not be your strong suit. Let me know if you need any guidance with using the quote function. Also please note this site has a tendency to log you out if you write a long post. So that you don't lose it please copy any text before submitting your post (right click, highlight text, click copy...and then rght click, click paste to put it back if needed).

This site is focussed on seeing through the illusion of self as a separate entity. I am not here to give you anything new to believe in, only to help you see through something that was never real.
Please set aside any expectations for the course of this investigation. Also set aside any beliefs, teachings and philosophies so that you can focus clearly. If you have a daily meditation practise it is fine to continue with it, but you do not need to be meditating to see there is no self.

You've come here to see, so lets start looking,

What comes up when I say
There is no you in any shape or form, there never has been. There is no you now and there never can be.

Warmly,
Ray

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
Thanks for reminding me of my age. But at least I had the 1960s!!
I do meditate every morning but for some while now I only "just sit" or watch. No formal programme.
"No you in any form..."If I turn my attention to the Jonathan experience I get quite a mixed bag of experiences. If the awareness I have is somewhere inside the thoughts and feelings that arise I experince a strong "this is me " experience. Or rather it just runs along its own lines completely in itself and jumping from thing to thing.
If I can make some effort and establish awareness ouside the thoughts and feelings I mean watching them arise and fall away, they start to run out of energy and slow up, even stop until my awareness drops off and I plop back down into t. and f.
Conclusion; the sense of Jonathan only seems to apply if there's no good awareness. Or if t. and f. fill up the whole experience.
Best Wishes, Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

Thanks for reminding me of my age. But at least I had the 1960s!!

. You've only got about 10 years on me! I was a bit young in the '60s, but had the pleasure of free University education, with beer money from the Government in the '70s.

Please read this article (by one of the other guides) about direct Experience,
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html

Now, refering to your 1st post please look with present moment dE at your three statements about awareness

one awareness that is emeshed in the thinking/feeling processes, that is at one with them and I call me;

another that stands outside the thinking /feeling and can watch them arise and fall away.

a third awareness that seems further from thinking/feeling that can dwell in itself without an agenda.

Look at each of these in turn. is there a sense of self identity in each one? If so where is that self located? Can you point at it?

RAy.

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
Thanks for sending the DE article; its very clear and focused.
You ask "is there a sense of self in the 3 awarenesses" I mentioned. What is my DE.
The first awareness is a hopeless case; the awareness and DE is not really there its already on automatic pilot and thoughts are in control and self referencing. One thought does arrive immediately followed by another, like an echo, that reinforces the previous thoughts identity.
The other two awarenesses have some DE operating. But does the awareness "allow" a self? I want to say no; but I'm not completely convinced that the awareness is always seeing through the sense of self that's there in the experience. The awareness on the borders of thinking watches thoughts but is generally allowing the existence of a sense of self.
It's only the third, which can be hard to maintain, that is seeing beyond and through the basis of the thinking process ie seeing the thoughts as empty, mechanical an unrelated to anything fixed.
Best Wishes, Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

Looking in your first example the "hopeless case" :). Notice the arising of thoughts. Does your self actually think thoughts? At what point does self claim to be the thinker of thoughts?

Try this experiment. Think of a number between 1 and 20.
Did you know the number before it appeared? Did you actually choose the number?

Please report back with what you find.

Best wishes

Ray.

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
I started with the 1-20. I don't think I chose the number in any meaningful way. It immediately chose itself once the parameters appeared. The number seems to have been determind by the limits!! I tried others and of course it felt the same.
"Does the self think thoughts?" NO; thoughts don't seem to have been thought or thought up. Not concocted just appearing. Like ripples that somehow have started and just keep on going. One ripple behind another.
"At what point does the self claim to..." the sense of self seems like a trailer fixed on the back of thought. The thought and/or feeling appears (hungry) and tied to the back is the "I am"
Best Wishes Jonathan

[ray]

Hi Jonathan,

I started with the 1-20. I don't think I chose the number in any meaningful way. It immediately chose itself once the parameters appeared. The number seems to have been determind by the limits!! I tried others and of course it felt the same.

Nice observation. Curious. Please play with "noticing choosing" some more. It can be very revealing. As you go about your day focus in on where choices take place... tea or coffee...left or right...when to get up to have a pee. After observing please report back on HOW and when choosing happens. Can you find a chooser anywhere.
After you have spent some time on this please go on to this next step.

"Does the self think thoughts?" NO; thoughts don't seem to have been thought or thought up. Not concocted just appearing. Like ripples that somehow have started and just keep on going. One ripple behind another.
"At what point does the self claim to..." the sense of self seems like a trailer fixed on the back of thought. The thought and/or feeling appears (hungry) and tied to the back is the "I am"

Crystal clear observation. I bet you've done some of this before ;) Clarity is what we are after here. To clearly see what's going on with this "I am", this self.
So, in this sequence of thoughts and self attached to thoughts, WHAT is the self?
Is is a thought, or is it the thinker, or an idea or what? Really LOOK and let me know what you find.

With warmth,
Ray

[jon45]

Hi Ray,
Before I forget many thanks for doing this. It's really appreciated.
Choices; I thought the numbers were interesting. The choosing was so non personnal, spontaneous. The "answer" is a part of the limits 1-20 answer 8. So 1, 8, 20 seem to relate to each other but not to anything else. The nearest I got to a self is a feeling; "where between 1-20 do you feel comfortable??" "I am" felt more secure with 8 than 5 or 6!!
And it is similar with other choices instead of 1,8,20 it could be; seeing/computer/emails/check it out. All related to each other but its hard to see someone or something making choices. So direct exp. is awareness but lacking DE is lack of awareness and there is still the pull of this.
You say "you must have done this before"..but what I have is years of meditating and watching. But I wonder if a lot of it has been like a fisherman fishing with no hook. You see lots and lots but you don't catch much.
What is the self??...It's hard to find any body home. But the house is still there.
Keep Well Jonathan