who would like to guide me?

[odemira]

hi liv

yes, the whole point is that 'YOU' can't make sense of it, because 'You' are relying on the content of thought - making sense means 'I have thought about this and I understand it'. And 'you' will never find what 'you' are seeking through thinking about it.

Confusion is the thought 'I don't understand this'. Good, what you are seeking is SEEN and not understood. Forget all the stuff about 'what science says', it's just more confusion, more thought story. And there is no 'you' that doesn't understand, that's just a thought - 'YOU' are imaginary, no more substance than Santa Claus or Batman.

Liv, either start really focusing on the looking as I am pointing you to, or give up.

you are essentially asking through examples if that which is experienced is experiencially seperate from
the physical means of experiencing, which are the senses, right? i will take a little more time exploring this...:)

I am pointing you to where to look so that you can see in your own direct experience what is actually present. It is far simpler than you 'think' it is. So don't take any notice of what thoughts say, just observe what is present.

with much love
annie

[tsaheylu]

heya annie :)

yes, the whole point is that 'YOU' can't make sense of it, because 'You' are relying on the content of thought - making sense means 'I have thought about this and I understand it'. And 'you' will never find what 'you' are seeking through thinking about it.

this explains why these questions felt so frustrating and impossible to answer..

'YOU' are imaginary, no more substance than Santa Claus or Batman.

LOL

Confusion is the thought 'I don't understand this'.

...and believing it, which presupposes believing in 'I am an idea and this body'

Forget all the stuff about 'what science says', it's just more confusion, more thought story

OK.

I am pointing you to where to look so that you can see in your own direct experience what is actually present. It is far simpler than you 'think' it is. So don't take any notice of what thoughts say, just observe what is present.

OK

:) THANK YOU

[odemira]

hi liv
how's it going?
when you look, can you see a boundary line between what is seen and the seeing of it? Or is it just seamless?

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello annie,

thanks for checking in.

when you look, can you see a boundary line between what is seen and the seeing of it? Or is it just seamless?

no boundary line, seamless.

[tsaheylu]

when 'seeing hands' is happening, can 'seeing' and 'hands' ever be separate? Or 'drinking tea' - can the drinking and the tea ever be separated? 'Eating a banana'. 'Shampooing hair'. Are the verb and the object separate, outside of language?

in order to answer this, i have to think, i automatically start thinking about it and sorting it out logically, otherwise i would not know to answer anything. as i said, it does not make any sense to me. so i cannot answer this question.
confusion or dumbfoundedness is the answer.

what keeps coming (from thinking) is that sensing happens in and through the bodily senses, these are also physical, hence objects and all objects seem seperate. the experience is eating a banana, or shampooing hair. the question itself whether the act of shampooing and the hair itself are seperate sounds like a koan, such as the question: "what is the sound of one hand clapping" it is an impossible question and therefore just feels frustrating when holding it.

namaste,
liv

[odemira]

hi liv

when you look, can you see a boundary line between what is seen and the seeing of it? Or is it just seamless?
no boundary line, seamless.

YES - and this takes just one look to see that of course there is no boundary line, it is a seamless whole. Your answer was brief and true because it was what was seen.

And then see how the mind complicates it all:

in order to answer this, i have to think, i automatically start thinking about it and sorting it out logically, otherwise i would not know to answer anything. as i said, it does not make any sense to me. so i cannot answer this question. confusion or dumbfoundedness is the answer.

YES, thinking will not give you the answers. Perhaps you can give yourself permission to not use thinking and logic to 'answer the questions' - there aren't right or wrong answers here, all I am doing is pointing you where to look. If you look and can't see, I'll just point in another way ;)

So, no boundary line exists between what is seen and the seeing of it - one cannot exist without the other, they are a seamless whole. 'Eating a banana' - if there is no banana, then 'eating a banana' is not happening. They are one seamless whole. Perhaps it would help if you imagine taking a photo of the moment, freezing the moment - in that photo of Liv eating a banana, what is seen? Is there a boundary line between your mouth and the banana? or are they one seamless image? One seamless happening?

with much love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello annie,

So, no boundary line exists between what is seen and the seeing of it - one cannot exist without the other, they are a seamless whole. 'Eating a banana' - if there is no banana, then 'eating a banana' is not happening. They are one seamless whole. Perhaps it would help if you imagine taking a photo of the moment, freezing the moment - in that photo of Liv eating a banana, what is seen? Is there a boundary line between your mouth and the banana? or are they one seamless image? One seamless happening?

one cannot exist without the other, does not make sense. because the object is still there even when the eyes are closed. what does make sense is that there is no experience of seeing an object when the eyes are closed. no experience of eating a banana when there is no banana. in the photo of liv eating banana the banana is still a different and seperate object to the mouth.

hence i think it's best for me to stick to the fact that the experience is a whole. so different objects come in contact with the senses and an experience happens. the experience is as it is whole and no seperation there,
it all happens within the body. seperateion still exists apparently in the world of objects and the body is also an object.

thank you for pointing me!

blessings,

liv

[odemira]

hi liv

the experience is as it is whole and no seperation there,

yes indeed.

So is there an experiencer? Or is it all one seamless happening?

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello annie,

So is there an experiencer? Or is it all one seamless happening?

it is all one seamless happening including the impression that there is an experiencer,
that i am experiencing this...

with love,
liv

[odemira]

hello liv

When you write "including the impression that there is an experiencer, that i am experiencing this..." is that impression true?

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Please tell me in detail, then we can see where we need to go from there!

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

hello dear annie,

When you write "including the impression that there is an experiencer, that i am experiencing this..." is that impression true?

yes.

Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Please tell me in detail, then we can see where we need to go from there!

i know there is not, intellectually. yet experiencially it seems all the same that there is. just as i know in actuality there is no separation, and yet all things seem seperate.

[odemira]

hi liv,

i know there is not, intellectually. yet experiencially it seems all the same that there is. just as i know in actuality there is no separation, and yet all things seem seperate.

I understand - is it ok with you that this is the position, that you know it intellectually? It is up to you whether you want to look further or not, it depends on how strong the urge is within you to go further.

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

dear annie,

is it ok with you that this is the position, that you know it intellectually?

it is what it is. if i wish it where different, i am suffering.

It is up to you whether you want to look further or not, it depends on how strong the urge is within you to go further.

you've shown me the ropes of how to question what is real and what is content of thought and hence not real. and what is real does not hurt, only illusion hurts. what is real is always what is experienced with all senses right here and now. anything else is content of thought.

i am open to looking further. i just cannot imagine that there is more to get/see than i already did. i am not the body, check in with that. i am not my thoughts, remember that, watch and see how they just arise. whenever a negative emotion about 'what is' arises, even in the slightest, i am reminded, that i am believing some story about 'what is'. and every story has "me" as it's character that it happens to. this is what creates all the suffering.

now, even that i know this, it still is the modus operandi and nothing seems to have changed. at the same time, that is not entirely true either because it is like a practice and a committment to truth, to come back to what is really happening, to the five senses and noticing thoughts, whenever there is suffering. this committment is there because i want to feel good and because i know that feeling bad means i am believing in an illusion. and i have the tools now to check in on what is really going on. what am i thinking right now, what am i believing? and who is believing these thoughts?

i wonder what more can be done? how can i go further? what more could i see? and i do not want to waste your time in going in circles. the way i get it, is that it is an ongoing practice. as long as there is this sense that i am a seperate self, then it will seem like i am practicing, i am remembering, i am looking, i am questioning, i am confused etc.

Until that sense of seperate self dissolves, only then can it be experienced and seen that it was never a me there doing, that in fact it was happening like the wind blowing and there was just a sense that there was me blowing the wind. However this sense seems real to me now, although i know it is an illusion.

Every person who 'woke up' from the illusion to the illusion, or as LU phrases it: sees through the illusion, and talks about it, that i have listened to, says that this waking up or seeing just happens and that there is nothing anyone can do to see it and that the illusion is held in place energetically. At the same time many of the same people, point and guide us to look and inquire. Some say that looking and inquiring will only perpetuate the sense of someone looking hence of seperate self.

About having an urge...having an urge to see and then having the feeling that as much as i look, it remains an understanding rather than an experience, that i am no seperate self, seems to create frustration, in other words more suffering.

So i am confused about how to continue and wonder what you have to say about what i wrote..

with love and appreciation,

liv

[odemira]

Dear Liv,

I understand exactly what you are saying, and where you are! As the first step forward, please read this blog post by Ilona about expectations, and do the exercises she suggests, particularly with regard to your expectations about the 'disappearance of the sense of self'. Write and let me know :)

http://networkedblogs.com/IuF1W

with love
annie

[tsaheylu]

heya annie :)

here goes..

The easy steps to drop expectations:

1. Write all of them down.
What do you expect from......?
What you don't expect from........?
What do you want from.....?
What you don't want from......?

2. Dig deeper, find the hidden expectations and write them down too. Open up with whole honesty.

3. Read what you wrote and let this sink in. Let it all be OK. Acknowledge that these expectations are running in the system.

4. Take a look in your experience right now, is anything really missing?

5. Realise that nothing is ever happening the way you imagine it would, that life goes on regardless of how you expect it to go. Check if you have control over what is happening and when.

6. See if you need all those expectations or if its OK to let them all go. Take a closer look, if expectations are useful. See if anything would be lost if those expectations would drop. Write all that comes up. When you write, mind focuses and is forced to look closer.


And if this does not have an expected effect, you may bring your precious expectations to the forum and work with someone through them until there is shiny clarity.


Just like weeds in the garden, the sneaky expectations may come back. Don't let them ruin the show. :)

with regard to your expectations about the 'disappearance of the sense of self'

ref. 1.)

i expect from the disappearance of the sense of self the experience of the dissapearance of the sense of self, the experience that there is just experience, happening to no one, the dissapearance of there being someone that is suffering, a letting go into what is in the moment without resistance to what is happening.

I don't expect it to make suffering worse.

I want that it doesn't matter anymore that my life seems to mostly consist of suffering and problems and emptyness and purposelessness and void of perspective and direction and a feeling of inability to do anything and a feeling of disconnectedness to everyone and a sense that there is no place in the world for me, i want that all this feeling is truely ok as it is and that it is clearly experienced that there is no one there in fear and panick and suffering about what is.


I don't want to be more confused, suffer more, feel more abysmal emptyness and purposelessness and void of perspective.

Ref. 4)

no

ref. 5)

no

ref. 6)

i don't need them, i wish to let them go, expectations are not useful, in contrary. They seem to block or contract openness to what is.