Ready to dive in...

[vinceschubert]

how to disentangle?

Don't try. Disentangling will happen if you just SEE it. You can't be lost in it if you are aware of it. The human condition means there is always a time delay between action and reaction. SEE it and wait (without expectations - unless there is, of course. Then just see them too...)

the fact that i can't stop it when its futility is seen gives rise to frustration

Are you seeing the story of expectation ? Just SEE it. (the frustration as well as the attempt to stop it) Perhaps re-read the sweet spot lines again. Hang on & i'll find them...

The Sweet Spot.
When quiet and still and focused on a recognition of the fact that what is IS, the sweet spot is appreciated.
When there is a knowing that the situation as it stands is the current situation, the sweet spot is experienced.
When there is an acceptance of everything in the Now of this life, the sweet spot is known.
When the infinite details that make up the current experiencing are seen as irrelevant to the Fact of Now, the sweet spot is here.
When the bullshit that thought/mind is using to camouflage the actual is accepted as part of the actual, the sweet spot is now.
When welcome acceptance of the totality of Now is present, that is the Sweet Spot.

ultimately, the job, the mental noise, the other meat sacks are all an expression of this meat sack's particular experiencing.

If you squint your eyes just the right way, you can see that they are not just an expression of you, but actually ARE you, being expressed.

at the same time, you're over there supporting me (my story).

Yes, your story.

why?

i have no idea. It just happens. i could speculate of course, but that's just more story and a waste of a great day.

i'm quite sure it doesn't keep you up at night.

Correct. It's just like a yummy dessert that turns up each day (or not)

love

[ixturtle]

Today's story of "self"...

Today was mostly a day of synchronicities unfolding... which brings quite a bit of wonder to this meat sack.

Nevertheless, today's "self" has been wondering about morality... a giant STORY, i can see, but... right wrong is clearly story; there's just what happens. BUT...

i think a lot about what you said about heads in the sand-- that the head in the sand is the head that believes the voice in the head.

This morning I stumbled on a video (as I was confirming a crossword clue about a heavy metal band (!)) with a woman bashing Tolle for promoting Nirvana while ignoring the suffering of the world around him. Her energy was aggressive and off putting, but the message I suppose points to a fear that arises for this meat sack... that letting go into nowness is a tacit assent to a world of hatred, violence, rape, hunger, war, etc.

yet there is an aggression in this view that utterly contrasts the view of okayness, which is the view of love and which this meat sack senses holds more truth and possibility. that too is story, of course.

The other "self" that arose today was around desire vs. morality. Lots of noise in the head about that one, but I've done a better job today seeing this one as refrigerator noise. But still the underlying insecurity is there. if the mind lets go of its rules, all hell will break loose...

The intention (precept, yama) of non-harming seems like a good one though. let go of that too?

[vinceschubert]

..Tolle for promoting Nirvana while ignoring the suffering of the world around him

Story here is that Tolle is doing more to 'fix' the suffering in the world than most.
Would you not say that the "bashing" that the woman was doing is the very attitude that is a significant contributor to the suffering ?

that letting go into nowness is a tacit assent to a world of hatred, violence, rape, hunger, war, etc.

It is possible that if you are indifferent to that stuff before liberation then that might be the case afterward, but i doubt it. Once it is seen that the whole world is in you, then those things are an expression of you. How could there be tacit acceptance ?
If this stuff has the stories removed (how horrible it is, etc.) then the dependent conditions that make it possible become much clearer.
Have you seen this; It's just waiting for some energy to enact a change the could 'fix' these problems in one generation.
https://docs.google.com/document/edit?i ... VzIfJDpOYk

The intention (precept, yama) of non-harming seems like a good one though. let go of that too?

Certainly, let go of the principle. Non-harm relies on harm for it's existence. The default state of health and happiness doesn't rely on it's opposite to occur. Those other things are a misguided attempt to attain this default. They are based on the false idea of control. Happy people aren't interested in hurting anyone else. It doesn't require law to have happiness. In fact if a law was passed that mandated every citizen be happy...

metta

[ixturtle]

vince,
if you are an expression of "me", being expressed, then awe and gratitude arises towards this expression.

i was of course immediately aware of the the distinction between her aggression and tolle's acceptance and their relative relationships to suffering, though it took the "stumbling" on her video to exaggerate my own underlying hesitation/fear/story.

Certainly, let go of the principle. Non-harm relies on harm for it's existence. The default state of health and happiness doesn't rely on it's opposite to occur. Those other things are a misguided attempt to attain this default. They are based on the false idea of control. Happy people aren't interested in hurting anyone else. It doesn't require law to have happiness. In fact if a law was passed that mandated every citizen be happy...

This illuminates what I've always known. Thank you (or thank "me," being expressed as you... ha ha ha).

Suffering from a serious case of pronoia at the moment. :-)

Love love,
ix.

[vinceschubert]

though it took the "stumbling" on her video to exaggerate my own underlying hesitation/fear/story.

Isn't it great how we put stuff 'out there' to show what is 'in here'.

serious case of pronoia

..don't know what you mean - unknown word.

Can you get a glimpse of how everything and everybody 'out there', is really IN you ?

metta

v

[ixturtle]

pro-noia is the opposite of paranoia-- in other words, that the universe is conspiring on your behalf... even the fact that you flip a switch and a light comes on can be evidence for pro-noia but yesterday i just couldn't believe how everything seemed to be interacting with everything (even the hard stuff) to support me in waking up.

Can you get a glimpse of how everything and everybody 'out there', is really IN you ?

i often see that this meat sack's experience of everyone and everything 'out there' is filtered through the meat sack's unique senses/perceptions/conditioning and thus is unique to the meat sack. and i can intellectually grasp that i have no direct evidence for anyone or anything except through the lens of this experiencing.

but i don't think that's how you mean it... in which case, the story of separation persists.

[vinceschubert]

i just couldn't believe how everything seemed to be interacting with everything (even the hard stuff) to support me in waking up.

Wonder-Full !
Now i know it may just be language, but.. "i couldn't believe it.." is the mind wanting to put meaning to everything.
Might there just be acceptance and Wonder that it was happening (to nobody) Just happening ?

in which case, the story of separation persists.

So is it seen as a story ? just as the non-separation is seen as story too ?

v

[ixturtle]

Might there just be acceptance and Wonder that it was happening (to nobody) Just happening ?

yes, acceptance and wonder, that's enough. there is a catching of the commentator more often right now (ebbs and flows of course) but the choice between listening to that nonsense and attending to what's here seems obvious.

in which case, the story of separation persists.

So is it seen as a story ? just as the non-separation is seen as story too ?

not really. the experience here is that there is this meat sack and there is everything else, but that everything else is filtered through the meat sack's story, and as such is a story. but that they exist outside of me, independent of me, still feels real (even if there's no direct experience other than the filter-- which seems crazy i guess but there it is). to be honest, non-separation feels like more of a story than separation though everything we write here points to the contrary. the language of both separation and non-separation are of course stories. but the experience? i can almost imagine seeing the latter, and there's a story about how i must not be looking hard enough-- if i just squint my eyes the right way, so to speak-- but over the last few months there's been a learning that the seeings happen on their own.

[vinceschubert]

Might there just be acceptance and Wonder that it was happening (to nobody) Just happening ?

yes, acceptance and wonder, that's enough. there is a catching of the commentator more often right now (ebbs and flows of course) but the choice between listening to that nonsense and attending to what's here seems obvious.

in which case, the story of separation persists.

So is it seen as a story ? just as the non-separation is seen as story too ?

not really. the experience here is that there is this meat sack and there is everything else, but that everything else is filtered through the meat sack's story, and as such is a story. but that they exist outside of me, independent of me, still feels real (even if there's no direct experience other than the filter-- which seems crazy i guess but there it is). to be honest, non-separation feels like more of a story than separation though everything we write here points to the contrary. the language of both separation and non-separation are of course stories. but the experience? i can almost imagine seeing the latter, and there's a story about how i must not be looking hard enough-- if i just squint my eyes the right way, so to speak-- but over the last few months there's been a learning that the seeings happen on their own.

I'm on my iPad, so quoting is a pain (as typing is), so refer to your post for context.
When you say "catching of the commentator" & "listening to that nonsense" there seems to be some disapproval. This judgement gives it power. For it to be released it needs to be as benign as the sound of the refrigerator. Of course, I might be mistaking the language for the meaning here, but have a look if there is any emotion attached.
"non-separation feels like more of a story than separation"
Of course, everything that isn't being experienced Now is a story.
"and there's a story about how i must not be looking hard enough-- if i just squint my eyes the right way, so to speak"
The story about not looking hard enough points to another story, the story of control - have a look.
"i can almost imagine seeing the latter,"
That feeling of almost.. Hang with that for a bit. No expectations. Like an itch that doesn't quite need scratching.

Love

V

[ixturtle]

there seems to be some disapproval.

there's a preference, and perhaps hidden in there is disapproval, but it's subtle-- mostly i just feel grateful when the apparent choice arises between more thinking and taking in the moment. in any case, i'll keep an eye out for anything louder than the fridge (well, that intention is arising anyway).

when tiredness characterizes the moment (as it does presently), there's both a sense of less control and a desire for more. when i feel energetic (a label of course), the noticing of being caught happens more readily along with more gratefulness and patience, all of which results in less resistance. tiredness puts me more on autopilot, which means getting caught up in story is easier and getting frustrated easier.

all story, but nevertheless motivation to head to bed...

[vinceschubert]

The tiredness thing is interesting. How fatigue gives permission for automatic responses (responses to story) to have more rein.
I am watching my mother fall into dementia at the moment and can see how her conditioning comes to the fore. The pretence of politeness evaporates.
I have heard how big lottery winners revert to their default state of happiness within two years.
So there is great value for Seeing when fatigue is present. Less likelihood of pretence being taken as 'real'.
So, is there a 'real' Rebecca behind the facade of conditioning ?

love

vince

[ixturtle]

So, is there a 'real' self behind the facade of conditioning ?

This question made me smile. So many layers of conditioning on top of other layers of conditioning. The mind-body meat sack first learns ways to survive and then finds out they don't work so well, and so attempts to learn new ways (the other ways, just under the surface, ready to emerge whenever the meat sack is too tired to keep it under wraps). Then the meat sack recognizes that this doesn't really work either and so piles more and more layers on top... until eventually they end up posting on LU as a final last ditch effort!

What's underneath all this conditioning? Just awareness/experiencing of a physiological body/mind acting through its conditioning. So there's no "real self" to please stand up (reference to 1970s American game show). Is this something that this meat sack truly recognizes? Is it SEEN? I don't know anymore-- anything the mind "thinks" is essentially just another experience of conditioning. An onion that peels away to nothing. Everything is certainly the same but instead of adding "but everything is different"-- I can only add that when this view (conditioning?) has more weight, that which is perceived has slightly more ease about it. Still very easy to get caught up. Still very easy to lose this view entirely. Still the "sense" of this meat sack in relation to everything else.

Curious... if you have a story about how ix sabotages "herself" from seeing, what would it be?

[vinceschubert]

Story here is that is does see already, but has expectations that make it disappointing to accept.
Read Sarah7 thread. She was similar, as is Rose. (As was vince)
I suspect it may be because there has been so much 'work' done before this process was started. The result being that it isn't dramatic enough to knock you from your Center of Familiarity, thus no 'aha!' or sonic boom.
The shift that occurs with the drama (for those who have it) is really 5% with the SeEEing, and the remainder over the rest of their life anyway.
Is there a peace, an ok-ness behind/beneath shit, when it happens these days ?

v

[ixturtle]

Had wanted to read more of sarah7 before I replied, but then a few days slip by and there's a sense of being more and more disconnected. A little down-hearted today-- there's an on again off again intention to see this as impersonal, just part of what's here now, part of the rich texture of experiencing, though mostly without success (which reinforces the down-heartedness, which is mostly circumstantial/relational).

So I guess with respect to this question: "Is there a peace, an ok-ness behind/beneath shit, when it happens these days ?" --- the answer, today at least, is "not so much"...

Who is here to be "down hearted?" The mind says "I am" and that rings hollow now, but the heart nevertheless feels like a tourniquet... which of course is OK too... but hard to see as "not me".

[vinceschubert]

This comes to fingertips as i read your post;
Actual identification is only happening when you are lost in the story, when you are mindlessly acting out the script.
The moment you become aware that it was happening, identification is broken. (that particular identification)
if you can find an answer to who or what is aware, then there is still identification. It's just with something other than self.
If there is any moment (a millisecond is enough) where there is just aware-ing that a script was being acted out, then there has been SEEing.
This then is the seed to new brain processes, and the de-conditioning of old ones. If we accept that old ways of responding to (almost) everything that occurs has our entire lifes experiences behind it, then it's perfectly reasonable to expect it to be the dominant experiencing for a while. But when we give each of those fleeting instances of SEEing the fanfare that they deserve, not only do new neuronal pathways establish and strengthen but the old ones start fading.
At this point it becomes a matter of how we entertain 'ourselves' while the balance shifts. There is no point in further seeking, as that will only take us away from this process.
What are we to do ??