Looking for a guide

[laulund]

Hi....who can guide me?

Many things i don't understand here. If "I" don't exist, who is it that seeks liberation?

Regards,
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

I'd be glad to help (another guide called s-p-a-c-e would come along for the ride too)

Would you like to say a little about your background and what brings you here?

X
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

Thanks. Yes sure. I practice yoga and meditation and are experience the benefits of that such as more energy, more inner strenght and more peace and calmness. However i often wander over this question about what is awareness, who am i, why am i here and why does this world exists in the first place, what is the purpose of it all?

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Great, thanks for that.

There are a few preliminaries to get out of the way, then we can begin:

If you haven't already seen it, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too.

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/

Please could you confirm that you have read the disclaimer?

Also, there are a few ground rules, please respond to confirm:
1. You agree to post at least once a day.
2. In general, the guide will ask the questions for you to respond to
3. Responses require your utmost honesty

Lastly, here are a few points that it will help:

a) Please try to respond to questions from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Longwinded
analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress.
b) For the duration of the enquiry, it is fine to continue with your yoga and meditation, but please avoid pursuing other teachings and philosophies - this will help to keep things on track.
c) Please learn to use the quote function - instructions can be found by clicking here

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

Ok great. Yes i confirm that i have read the disclaimer and watch the video and agree to the 3 points above. Looking forward to get started.

Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Good, let's begin!

i often wander over this question about what is awareness, who am i, why am i here and why does this world exists in the first place, what is the purpose of it all?

We won't be able to answer all these questions, certainly not directly, maybe not at all ... however, this question gets to the heart of what we need to investigate:

If "I" don't exist, who is it that seeks liberation?

So let me bounce this back to you:

What, in terms of direct experience, is this "I" that seeks liberation?

"I" is a word label; what is it that this label "I" points to?

If you say "the floor" to yourself, you can locate the exact sensations that this label points to (feeling sensations in your feet, colours and shapes you can see). When you say "I" to yourself, what sensations does it point to?

Look carefully into your experience and write down what you find.

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

I feel that the "I" is pointing to my awareness which seems to be located in the middle of my head.

Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

OK, let's take a closer look...

So leaving the label "I" aside for the moment, take some time to investigate carefully the sensations that it points to ... here are some questions you might ask to help probe your experience:

- does awareness have edges? where does it end?
- what indicates that awareness is in the centre of your head?
- does awareness act, is it an 'agent'?

Perhaps you can think of questions of your own... the aim is to LOOK really closely at your experience, the questions are just a way of helping you to look - the aim not primarily to answer the questions

Take some time to investigate, treat it as you would a meditation - patiently, without expecting to arrive immediately, allowing experience to reveal and clarify.

Also, in general, it is usually worth doing these exercises more than once.

Let me know how you get on!

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

- My awareness does not seem to have any edges.
- It seems to be the visual and hearing sensation that point to the centre of the hedge behind the eyes and between the ears, but on the other hand i can also feel the tip of my toe. But if you ask me where my to is located if would say its below and the top of my head is above and my right ear is to the right and my left ear is to the left, my eyes is in the front and the back of my head is behind...so thats what points to my awareness in the centre of my head
- Does awareness act? that is a tough questions. My mind thinks thoughts but there seem to be two levels of thought. One level is thinking, analyzing etc, and another levels seems to be take decisions (act). I can watch my thoughts so they can not be me, but i seems to be very much indenfied with the decision process like I have a free will. Like i am sitting in the center of my head, watching the mind thoughts and then decide which actions to take based on the thoughts. However i am not 100% sure if my awareness is only aware or if it also take decisions. If it doesn't it means there is no free will.

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Good observations, very lucid!

So it seems that "I" is the decider, making choices and directing the show, yes? And at the same time, it seems that "I" must be awareness itself...

And yet it is not obvious in your experience that awareness itself is the decider ... mmm!

You say

I can watch my thoughts so they can not be me

this is an excellent observation (I'm guessing that this is something you had already learned through meditation).

So the question is - is the same true of choice?

Before you learned to meditate, perhaps you remember being completely identified with thought, convinced that you were making thoughts happen.... And at some point, maybe gradually, you noticed that thoughts just happen on their own, like clouds drifting through the sky - thinking does not require an "I" to drive it.... is it possible that the same applies to choosing and deciding?

So let's find out, by bringing close awareness to bear on the process of deciding and choosing. During day to day life there must be hundreds (thousands?) of tiny decisions and choices taking place - make it your project to notice what goes on during these moments for the next day or so.

In addition, you could explore choice through some exercises that give you the opportunity to witness choosing taking place, for example:

• resolve to raise your arm at some point in the next minute, and watch as a particular moment is chosen.
• go to the kitchen for a snack, watch as the decision is made what to eat
• walk around the room, swing your arms, twirl about - notice where the choice happens

Throughout all, a good question to ask is - is there an "I" making the decision happen, or does a sense of "I" arise to claim the decision after it has begun to happen?

Enjoy your investigation!

Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

Yes....through meditation i have experienced how my thoughts arise by them self. Some times during deep meditation i get to watch my mind in the same way as one does through dreams. Everything happens by itself but I am fully aware. The thoughts seem to rise of from the sub-conscious mind. While they seems to be happening by them self, i am not 100% sure if "I" am creating the thoughts sub-consciously and only become aware of them as they reach my consciousness, but i see it as entirely possible that it is not my awareness that create the thoughts. I tried your experiment and have to conclude that the same is the case for my choices and decisions. My thoughts are either created by "me" unconsciously or not by me. Its just a very scary thought if it is true that i have no control over my decisions and free will does not exist. That would also mean that it is not "me" that have decided to go on this forum and write with you. And then comes a bigger questions. If "I" realize that "I" am not the one who thinks and take decisions, then who is then have this "realization" or "understanding"?

Is it my mind who realize and understand or can my awareness realize and understand things?

The word "Self-realization" seems to imply that the self can realize it self ?

Regards
Henrik

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

So in direct experience, no thinker can be found, and no decider can be found, yet there is awareness - that is quite a discovery, great work!

We don't need to worry about what may, theoretically, be happening outside of awareness - everything necessary for liberation can be found in direct experience.

Its just a very scary thought if it is true that i have no control over my decisions and free will does not exist.

This fear is well worth investigating - it is points beyond the illusion of self.

Fear is a protection mechanism - respect it, be grateful for it, it has been protecting living beings from danger for millions of years ..... but in this case we need to go against the stream and look directly into the fear

so ...
What danger is this fear is diverting you from?
What is it protecting?
Can you see beneath it?
Is it preventing something from emerging?
What would it be like if what is feared is true?

x
Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

I like the point

We don't need to worry about what may, theoretically, be happening outside of awareness - everything necessary for liberation can be found in direct experience.

So yes if we are talking about direct experience, then i can not see where the thoughts and decisions are coming from and therefore i can not tell for sure if they are created by "Me" or if "I" have any control over them what so ever.

What danger is this fear is diverting you from?

The danger is that if there is no free will i am not responsible for my own happiness or suffering. I am bound to either or, i am not free.

What is it protecting?

The fear is protecting the idea that "I" am responsible for my own happiness and that I can do something to become more happy.

Can you see beneath it?

Tried it but can't really see what is beneath it

Is it preventing something from emerging?

It seems to be holding on to some energy.

What would it be like if what is feared is true?

I would have no choices but on the other hand I would also be free from the stress that comes with having to make a choice. I would have to surrender completely to my destiny. In one way it can feels liberating, but then my mind comes with the thought...but what if my destiny is to suffer? Then there is nothing i can do about it and i have to suffer. Is that freedom?

But again....who is it that suffer? Who is it that gets liberated? Who is it that have these realizations? Is it my mind or is it my awareness?

[perrym]

Hi Henrik,

Free will - a big one, yes?

So it seems to you that one or the other of these must be true:

• There is free will, and "I" is free to choose and to pursue happiness .... or .....
• There is no free will, and "I" just has to watch as the inevitable plays out

When we started, you lived believing that there is free will, but having witnessed choice happening without being driven by "I", you're not so sure ... fear arises at the thought that "I" may be powerless .... and also a sense that perhaps there may be a kind of freedom in surrender

I respect your courage in facing these questions - it is fundamental stuff, and you're moving fast!

Allow me to suggest that neither of the two possibilities - free will or destiny - quite correspond with experience because both ideas require a separate "self", and a separate self simply cannot be found in experience.

Free will only makes sense if there is an entity, separate from the the stream of experience, that acts on experience. Destiny only makes sense if there is an entity, separate from the stream of experience, that is acted upon by experience. Drop the habitual assumption that there must be a separate "self", and both free will and destiny are seen as dreams.

In experience, perception, feeling, thought and choice all take place in awareness, but where is the separate self?

Language tricks us into assuming that every action requires a separate doer of the action .... "the wind blows" ... does it? Is there a wind separate from the blowing, or is there just blowing? "I think" .... really? Is there is an "I" separate from the thinking, or is there just thinking? You have already discovered for yourself that thinking and choosing can happen without being driven by "I" ... is it possible that this is universally true?

Please do not believe me - find out for yourself... What, in direct experience, can you find that can be called "I" or "self" that is other than feeling, thought, perception and choice taking place within awareness?

It can help to say to yourself words like "I", "myself" or your name, and notice what the experiences these words evoke are made of.

Whenever you find a separate self, look carefully and see whether it is really some combination of feeling, thought, perception and choice taking place within awareness.

Let me know how you get on, and .... Enjoy!

Perry

[laulund]

Hi Perry,

I have to say that I (who may not exist :-) enjoy our conversions. Its quite interesting and i am waiting for your reply like a impatient kid waiting to open his presents.

When we started, you lived believing that there is free will, but having witnessed choice happening without being driven by "I", you're not so sure ... fear arises at the thought that "I" may be powerless .... and also a sense that perhaps there may be a kind of freedom in surrender

Yes i can see the shift and can sense the feeling of relaxation that arises from the idea of not having to be in control.

Allow me to suggest that neither of the two possibilities - free will or destiny - quite correspond with experience because both ideas require a separate "self", and a separate self simply cannot be found in experience.

Yes that's an interesting viewpoint, but can i ask you how you define the word "self" and what the difference is between a "separate self" and a "non separate self".

Assuming that I don't exists brings another thought to my mind, which is weather God exist and if God has a free will or if life in general is completely deterministic?

I think i can accept that idea that life, thinking and choices is happening without my free will, but I still feel very strongly that i am the awareness that is watching life playing out.

In experience, perception, feeling, thought and choice all take place in awareness, but where is the separate self?

Isn't the self, I and awareness the same thing?

Language tricks us into assuming that every action requires a separate doer of the action .... "the wind blows" ... does it? Is there a wind separate from the blowing, or is there just blowing? "I think" .... really? Is there is an "I" separate from the thinking, or is there just thinking? You have already discovered for yourself that thinking and choosing can happen without being driven by "I" ... is it possible that this is universally true?

Yes that is possible and I can see that actions can be done without a doer, but how can I experience something if I don't exist? That is the point that i can not see for now.

You and I both have experiences (experiences are happening through sense organs etc), but the difference between your experiences and my experience is that I do not experience your experience but i do experience my own experience.

Please do not believe me - find out for yourself... What, in direct experience, can you find that can be called "I" or "self" that is other than feeling, thought, perception and choice taking place within awareness?

No i can not see my "self" but does that mean that i don't exist? I also can not see my own eyes, but they still exist.

Whenever you find a separate self, look carefully and see whether it is really some combination of feeling, thought, perception and choice taking place within awareness.

You say "look carefully", but who is it that you want to "look" other than "me"? How can I look of I don't exist?

I guess this is where i am stuck.