Bert, this thread is for you! xxx

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

Yes, that’s true, but remember, ......
The essential point to all the verbiage is to say there is no ‘I’ needed for this to happen to, nor indeed is there an ‘I’ that this can happens to.

Are you saying that the perceiver-'I' that I think I am is awareness witnessing individuality?

If the perceiver was the ‘I’, that is, a separate individual entity that controls and manages the person known as Bert,.....

I don't get this, because the 'I' that I think I am is the perceiver (that what is aware of everything Bert is witnessing), but it is not controlling anything.

As a recap of expectations and our aim what we are looking for at this stage of liberation, is only to show there is no ‘I’ that exists in reality in any way shape or form. We are not looking here for any fireworks, any sudden explosions of enlightenment that will change who you are. We just need you to know and see for yourself there is no ‘I’, ‘me’ that exists. Once you have done this then you have entered the stream of awakening and can develop and deepen this further.

That's ok, I am not looking for fireworks. It just feels like I am a specific instance of awareness/consciousness that is living inside Bert.

Let me know if this helps in any way, but beware the ego which will come in always with counter arguments as it fears it will be denied and lost by such enquiry and its job is to fight for survival.

I really believe this is helping me, but I can't be sure until I have seen this myself. I experience many arguments in the inner dialog, but it doesn't feel like it's a problem.

Bert

[Chris7]

Hi Bert

Are you saying that the perceiver-'I' that I think I am is awareness witnessing individuality?

Not really, I’m saying there is a FEELING of an individual perceiver but there is not a separate individual entity within you that acts as a controller – a captain of the ship. Yes, there is self-awareness but no individualised entity.

I don't get this, because the 'I' that I think I am is the perceiver (that what is aware of everything Bert is witnessing), but it is not controlling anything.

Please see answer above.


And, to go over an aspect of the last post again that you didn’t respond to:

So if ‘you’ are the one (perceiver) who is aware of everything then who is aware of this one, that is, you say there is something (that you call perceiver) that is aware of Bert but who is aware that there is this perceiver?

Where is the perceiver when Bert is in dreamless sleep?

That's ok, I am not looking for fireworks. It just feels like I am a specific instance of awareness/consciousness that is living inside Bert.

Glad to hear that you don’t have any grand expectations. And, again, where is this consciousness/awareness located apart from the computations of the brain?

I understand what you are trying to convey, Bert, and that there’s just that niggling bit to overcome that there is awareness of everything that happens to Bert, and this awareness is unique to you. But, while it is the case, this awareness is not a separate individual entity that resides within you…it is merely a function of the amazing biological ‘machine’ that you are that has been taught and conditioned to believe in itself as a separate entity.


We just need to keep chipping away at this and you will suddenly find it ‘click’ it to place, I’m sure of it.

Chris

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

So if ‘you’ are the one (perceiver) who is aware of everything then who is aware of this one, that is, you say there is something (that you call perceiver) that is aware of Bert but who is aware that there is this perceiver?

I believe that I can see myself, but then again I think this is not possible. I must be believing in this perceiver-'me', because I cannot see it directly.

Where is the perceiver when Bert is in dreamless sleep?

The specific brain activity that is creating the perceiver is not active, the program is not running.

Bert

[Chris7]

Hi Bert

I believe that I can see myself, but then again I think this is not possible. I must be believing in this perceiver-'me', because I cannot see it directly.

Of course you cannot see it because whatever you can be aware of isn’t ‘you’ it’s not possible.

The specific brain activity that is creating the perceiver is not active, the program is not running

That’s very true. So, you already know ‘you’ aren’t your brain, rather, that the brain is a processor of programmes (albeit very complex). That means the perceiver isn’t who or what you are but is instead just a process of the brain –one which doesn’t exist during dreamless sleep.

The illusion is very powerful and strong and has been programmed into your brain since you were a very small child (you had no such thoughts as a baby as you being a separate, individual self – no concept of an ‘I’).

So, Bert, can you still find an ‘I’ that exists within you as a separate, individual entity?

Chris

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

So, Bert, can you still find an ‘I’ that exists within you as a separate, individual entity?

I think I cannot find an actual 'I' anywhere, but the funny thing is I still feel like I am some entity inside Bert. It is just so intellectual, it doesn't feel like I am convinced of it.

Bert

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

Just checking in, letting you know I am still fully on this. It all stays very intellectual, but I find it interesting that I can't find an 'I', but do feel like an 'I'.

Bert

[Chris7]

Hi Bert

Sorry I haven’t got back sooner I don’t think I mentioned before that I don’t have the best of internet connections, (although it’s been quit good of late) and it sometimes drops off for hours or even for a day or two, unfortunately I again lost connection until this evening.

In answer: The great thing is you can’t find an ‘I’and that in itself is a wonderful breakthrough and often the most difficult to get past. I know what you mean about there is still the feeling of ‘a you’ and you don’t really lose that, after all you are an individual expression of consciousness and therefore will feel this way.

You won’t become a robot, with no feelings of individuality – but this absence of a personal ‘I’ will deepen. But, you will have individual expressions, preferences, memories, desires, personality-traits, feel pain, grief, sorrow, happiness, love, repulsion, anger, fear, frustration, hunger, excitement, ambitious etc. etc. In other words you will still remain a human being with all the things that make up a human being and all the things that Bert is, will continue.

Now, the major difference is there is no personal ‘I’ at the helm, managing, controlling, operating, thinking etc. If you think of the essence of life (Consciousness) as being like electricity (impersonal) then we are like the apparatus, a toaster, a kettle an oven, a microwave, a lamp, a television, a radio. Each is an individual aspect, each with its own particular function, programming, circuitry etc. Now the electricity that runs through each is the life force and essential for these items to operate.

Of course, this is just a lose analogy, and as a human you are a much greater and infinitely more complex aspect of one of these, however, similarly, the life force runs you but it isn’t you.

I appreciate what you are saying when you say it is intellectual at the moment for you, so based on the understanding that you can’t find the ‘I’ within you, lets try an exercise that may help someway in making this click beyond the intellect.

Over the next few days spend some time whenever possible, whether it be a couple of snatched minutes or 10 or 20 minutes when you get the time to be ‘mindful’ that is, whenever you do something – anything - and you remember to do this exercise, do whatever you are doing in a mindful way. It could be doing a chore, like washing the dishes, cooking a meal, chopping logs, walking, driving, really just about anything, yes even making love…do so mindfully, it can be tricky because the mind soon wanders.

This is how it works (apologies if you already know): lets use washing the dishes as an example – don’t get caught up in thoughts that often rampage, focus on what you are doing like feeling the warmth of the water, how it feels against the skin, the aroma of the washing-up liquid, the bubbles forming, the light reflected off them, the colours within them. Feel the texture of the plates, the movement of your hands, your breathing, the feel of your feet against the floor, the noises around you (without getting caught up in any of them). Don’t judge or label anything, just simply experience - if/when thoughts arise gently return to the task at hand.

This in itself is a wonderful, relaxing, meditative technique, and as you can see it uses all your senses, but what we are looking to see is how the body operates all by itself, no need for a 'you', as long as the task has been programmed in and practiced (like tying a shoelace) then the body and mind operates all on its own - no 'I' needed.

Looking forward to how you get on. If you want to get back to me straight away with a question or concern then please do so. If you need several days to get a good feel of doing this then that’s fine too. As long as you put this into practice whenever you can during this time, then no rush to respond.

Chris

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

This is how it works (apologies if you already know): lets use washing the dishes as an example – don’t get caught up in thoughts that often rampage, focus on what you are doing like feeling the warmth of the water, how it feels against the skin, the aroma of the washing-up liquid, the bubbles forming, the light reflected off them, the colours within them. Feel the texture of the plates, the movement of your hands, your breathing, the feel of your feet against the floor, the noises around you (without getting caught up in any of them). Don’t judge or label anything, just simply experience - if/when thoughts arise gently return to the task at hand.

I think I am just not very good at this. My thoughts just change from projections in the future and thinking over past events, to thoughts about the task I am focussing on. 'This water feels warm on my hands', 'I must focus on the task only', 'Look, this is all on automatic', 'If I try hard enough I can find out there is no I', etc. It just goes on and on. I feel a bit stuck here.

Bert

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

Just checking in. Hoping you can help me being more 'mindful'.

Bert

[Chris7]

Hi Bert
Thank you for giving the mindfulness a try. It isn’t easy initially to do I appreciate that. Sometimes as you have seen it lasts only a few seconds before mind kicks in again.

What this should show you however, is further proof there is no ‘I’ that actually exists. Your thoughts take over despite ‘your’ attempts at not allowing them. Therefore you can see you are not your thoughts, but that you are subject to them, they do not belong to you they are not controllable because there is no one (‘I’) to control them.

So, you are unable to find an ‘I’ and you can now see evidence that there is no ‘I’ that exists, but still there is a clinging on to an illusive ‘something’ that you believe is a ‘you’. The thing that clings is the ego, it will fight against this realisation with all its might until the fight is lost. Ideally (from the ego’s point of view) it will create the feeling of “this is hopeless, I may just as well give up” because it fears for its very existence of perpetuating the illusion of an ‘I’.

Now, if I told you there was an elephant sat in your armchair watching your television and you went home to look for yourself and found no elephant would you continue to search for it, perhaps checking under the beds and in the wardrobe? Of course you wouldn’t, but even though you can’t find an ‘I’ you continue to doubt that this is the case (it’s something we all do/have done so you’re not alone in this).

There is no ‘you’ in control of your life – you are life in the same way as:

It’s raining (there is no ‘it’ to rain – rain happens)

I’m breathing (there is no ‘you’ doing the breathing – breathing happens and if it stops there is nothing ‘you’ can do about it and life just ends)

I’m walking (this is little trickier - there is no ‘you’ walking – walking happens)

I’m dreaming (dreaming happens)

I’m tired (tiredness happens – there is no individual ‘I’ that can prevent this)

I’m happy (happiness happens dependent on particular conditions)

I’m sad (sadness happens dependent on prevalent conditions)

The only way you are going to ‘get’ this Bert, is by your own investigation. It’s no good me or anyone else telling you the answers. There are thousands and thousands of books and blogs and workshops and teachers out there all saying the same thing, but in the final analysis there is only you who can find within if it’s to be more than an intellectual concept.

The mindfulness technique is possible with a little practice but even with the thoughts and the chatter of the mind coming in you can also use this to see how ‘you’ operate, to see that there is no ‘you’, ‘I’ or ‘me’ that has any control and that all exists under the false premise, illusion or lie of an individual ‘I’.

Please try and develop the mindfulness a little more and incorporate the above to see for yourself and to know for yourself that there is no ‘I’.

Of course you are individuated consciousness, there are memories and experiences specific to this individualised consciousness as well as thoughts, feelings, habits, desires and self-awareness – but no ‘you’ that they belong to or happen to or for.

Chris

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

What this should show you however, is further proof there is no ‘I’ that actually exists. Your thoughts take over despite ‘your’ attempts at not allowing them. Therefore you can see you are not your thoughts, but that you are subject to them, they do not belong to you they are not controllable because there is no one (‘I’) to control them.

Yes, I can see this. I can't control my thoughts, but I can only see this when I really focus. During the day I notice I keep identifying with my thoughts.

So, you are unable to find an ‘I’ and you can now see evidence that there is no ‘I’ that exists, but still there is a clinging on to an illusive ‘something’ that you believe is a ‘you’. The thing that clings is the ego, it will fight against this realisation with all its might until the fight is lost. Ideally (from the ego’s point of view) it will create the feeling of “this is hopeless, I may just as well give up” because it fears for its very existence of perpetuating the illusion of an ‘I’.

I get the feeling of getting stuck. Then there are thoughts like "I can't do this", "This is not working for me", etc. Very frustrating!

Now, if I told you there was an elephant sat in your armchair watching your television and you went home to look for yourself and found no elephant would you continue to search for it, perhaps checking under the beds and in the wardrobe? Of course you wouldn’t, but even though you can’t find an ‘I’ you continue to doubt that this is the case (it’s something we all do/have done so you’re not alone in this).

This describes my situation perfectly. I act as if there is an elephant hidden in my house. I haven't found it, but I act as if it is very real. I think about it, talk about it, like it is very important, yet I have never seen it. Again, very frustrating!

There is no ‘you’ in control of your life – you are life in the same way as:

It’s raining (there is no ‘it’ to rain – rain happens)

I’m breathing (there is no ‘you’ doing the breathing – breathing happens and if it stops there is nothing ‘you’ can do about it and life just ends)

I’m walking (this is little trickier - there is no ‘you’ walking – walking happens)

I’m dreaming (dreaming happens)

I’m tired (tiredness happens – there is no individual ‘I’ that can prevent this)

I’m happy (happiness happens dependent on particular conditions)

I’m sad (sadness happens dependent on prevalent conditions)

When I look really well, I can see this. But it all feels very intellectual, it is not like I have seen the truth of this. It feels like some insight is missing, a click, an a-ha-moment.

The only way you are going to ‘get’ this Bert, is by your own investigation. It’s no good me or anyone else telling you the answers. There are thousands and thousands of books and blogs and workshops and teachers out there all saying the same thing, but in the final analysis there is only you who can find within if it’s to be more than an intellectual concept.

Yes, I can see this. All this reading just creates more concepts and these concepts are not satisfying answers to me.

The mindfulness technique is possible with a little practice but even with the thoughts and the chatter of the mind coming in you can also use this to see how ‘you’ operate, to see that there is no ‘you’, ‘I’ or ‘me’ that has any control and that all exists under the false premise, illusion or lie of an individual ‘I’.

Please try and develop the mindfulness a little more and incorporate the above to see for yourself and to know for yourself that there is no ‘I’.

I am really trying this technique, but it just creates a lot of silly mind games. I am still trying though.

Of course you are individuated consciousness, there are memories and experiences specific to this individualised consciousness as well as thoughts, feelings, habits, desires and self-awareness – but no ‘you’ that they belong to or happen to or for.

I have a hard time getting this. I am individuated, but I am not an 'I'.

Bert

[Chris7]

Hi Bert

Bless you, I how hard you’re working for this and I can certainly empathise with you’re frustrations.

Yes, I can see this. I can't control my thoughts, but I can only see this when I really focus. During the day I notice I keep identifying with my thoughts.

Yes, mind does this it has a lifetime of perpetuating this habit. The more you are able to watch your thoughts and treat them as clouds passing across the sky the more they will lose potency and the less they will have significance for you, sometimes this will work well at other times it will be much more difficult.

I get the feeling of getting stuck. Then there are thoughts like "I can't do this", "This is not working for me", etc. Very frustrating!

Yes it is very frustrating, the processes of the mind doing what they do and because you’ve now introduced a “battle” and are seeking to dispel the illusion, the ego will fight back, try and watch this and accept it is simply part of the process, it will get easier.

This describes my situation perfectly. I act as if there is an elephant hidden in my house. I haven't found it, but I act as if it is very real. I think about it, talk about it, like it is very important, yet I have never seen it. Again, very frustrating!

The aspect of you that thinks it’s an ‘I’ does this. You know there’s no ‘I’ now, you certainly can’t find one, so keep on looking for the evidence that proves this. So, if when you return home and find no elephant sat watching TV in your armchair, then sit in the armchair, not in another chair, and don’t look for evidence that there is an elephant, instead, look for evidence to keep proving there is no elephant AND just as importantly there NEVER was an elephant (replace elephant with ‘I’ of course).

There is no ‘you’ in control of your life – you are life in the same way as:

It’s raining (there is no ‘it’ to rain – rain happens)

I’m breathing (there is no ‘you’ doing the breathing – breathing happens and if it stops there is nothing ‘you’ can do about it and life just ends)

I’m walking (this is little trickier - there is no ‘you’ walking – walking happens)

I’m dreaming (dreaming happens)

I’m tired (tiredness happens – there is no individual ‘I’ that can prevent this)

I’m happy (happiness happens dependent on particular conditions)

I’m sad (sadness happens dependent on prevalent conditions)

When I look really well, I can see this. But it all feels very intellectual, it is not like I have seen the truth of this. It feels like some insight is missing, a click, an a-ha-moment.

I think you have seen the truth, in the same way as you saw the truth of no elephant in the room or in the same way you saw the truth about Santa being a lie, a concept.

As I mentioned, continue to see this truth in action whenever you get the opportunity. For example, when you’re thirsty ask who is thirsty, how does thirst present itself? How is it satisfied?

So, lets say you’re sat in the armchair that the elephant has vacated. You feel thirsty (you can check how thirst is registered in the body if you like) there’s no ‘I’ within you who suddenly decides this - it is a biological process. So, you go to the kitchen to get a drink. Who walks to the kitchen? You will find walking is an automatic process (once the BODY learned this skill as a toddler). There is no ‘I’ talking your body through the process of walking, there is no ‘I’ maintaining the intricate balancing and coordination, it’s an automatic biological function. The hand moves all by itself to collect a glass, to fill with water, to guide it to the mouth, to swallow and digest. Then the body will send the appropriate signals to let your body know that it has been satisfied with sufficient liquid.

There’s NEVER an ‘I’ needed or EXISTING that plays any part in any of this process. Language and conditioning will say otherwise, thoughts will come into conscious awareness AFTER the fact (long after the body ‘s intelligence has decided it needs and is going to get a drink) and these thoughts give the impression that there is an ‘I’ responsible but there isn’t, there can’t be.

Yes, I can see this. All this reading just creates more concepts and these concepts are not satisfying answers to me.

Very true!

I am really trying this technique, but it just creates a lot of silly mind games. I am still trying though.

Leave this alone then if they’re not working for you.

I have a hard time getting this. I am individuated, but I am not an 'I'.

Because you are an individual expression of consciousness you are a complete and highly complex intelligent unit, specifically designed to enter the dream of illusion and fully programmable to believe that you are a separate individual controlled and managed by an entity known as ‘I’ ‘me’ which has been conditioned and language to reinforce this.

A dog is an individual with its own personality, it’s own memories and conditioning. But, a dog does not know it’s a dog, does not believe it is controlled by an ‘I’ – it just “dogs”. A bird just “birds” an elephant (when not sat in you’re armchair watching TV :)) just elephants, etc. etc.

Bert just Bert’s, but has the language, the concepts, the conditioning, the training from being a baby to believe Bert is an ‘I’.

Please give the above some careful consideration and practice.

Chris

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

I have a really hard time to see the absence of the 'I' as the truth. To me it feels like just another concept. Maybe I just want to see this and therefore I cannot look at it objectively.
I feel stuck. I'm trying hard, but all I experience is a lot of 'mind games', thought, internal battle, etc.
All discoveries I made feel intellectual, not like I have discovered the truth.

Bert

[Chris7]

Hi Bert

I realise it can be difficult. Yes, initially it is intellectual that’s where the seeking must begin. If it is then left to the mind a battle will ensue as the mind uses logic and will want the riddle/puzzle solved and once it is it will come back with more objections but will never agree – that is just the natural process of the brain operating.

What you need to do is to not get locked into a battle with the brain (I know this sounds paradoxical because there is no ‘you’, it’s that we need to use language here).


So, to move forward:

Accept that there will always be a feeling of there being a ‘me’.

Check regularly to see where this ‘I’ as an entity resides (you’ve tried and cannot find – but simply check every time a ‘me’ ‘I’ thought pops up and see where it comes from).

Do not identify with any thoughts, concepts, feelings, sensations etc. Simply observe them and watch them pass likes clouds in the sky. You’ll notice there isn’t an owner, rather, that these things arise in awareness.

If you can observe these things (and you can) know they cannot be ‘you’ because there’s something greater something outside the events that is observing. For example, you cannot view your own car in a line of cars stuck in a traffic-jam because you are part of it. But if you stand on a bridge over the motorway you can observe the lines of other peoples vehicles queued up, but you cannot observe you when you’re part of it. Whatever you are aware of cannot be you.

Let all this become a way of seeing rather than an intellectual challenge whenever you can.

You perhaps could run through the threads again from the beginning and try out the exercises with the above in mind - This time approaching them in a non-intellectual way.

Take your time with this and make it a conscious daily approach. If you want to ask any questions ask what you need at any time, but if you need some time to just focus on this (there is a lot to work with here) then that’s fine but remember to make it experiential and not intellectual.

Good luck with this Bert, you will get there, and thank you for all the effort you are putting in to this, it’s very much appreciated.

Chris

[albertobrownie]

Hi Chris,

I realise it can be difficult. Yes, initially it is intellectual that’s where the seeking must begin. If it is then left to the mind a battle will ensue as the mind uses logic and will want the riddle/puzzle solved and once it is it will come back with more objections but will never agree – that is just the natural process of the brain operating.

I can relate to this, my mind views this as a puzzle that has to be solved and it is trying really hard to solve it, but it can't. It is desperate for this 'aha'-moment.

Check regularly to see where this ‘I’ as an entity resides (you’ve tried and cannot find – but simply check every time a ‘me’ ‘I’ thought pops up and see where it comes from).

Do not identify with any thoughts, concepts, feelings, sensations etc. Simply observe them and watch them pass likes clouds in the sky. You’ll notice there isn’t an owner, rather, that these things arise in awareness.

If you can observe these things (and you can) know they cannot be ‘you’ because there’s something greater something outside the events that is observing. For example, you cannot view your own car in a line of cars stuck in a traffic-jam because you are part of it. But if you stand on a bridge over the motorway you can observe the lines of other peoples vehicles queued up, but you cannot observe you when you’re part of it. Whatever you are aware of cannot be you.

Thank you for these tips, they really help me overcome the feeling of getting stuck.

You perhaps could run through the threads again from the beginning and try out the exercises with the above in mind - This time approaching them in a non-intellectual way.

Yes I will. It is strange to read my earlier posts. It is just like I did not write them, like I am reading someone else's story.

Take your time with this and make it a conscious daily approach. If you want to ask any questions ask what you need at any time, but if you need some time to just focus on this (there is a lot to work with here) then that’s fine but remember to make it experiential and not intellectual.

No questions at this time, just letting you know where I'm at now.

Good luck with this Bert, you will get there, and thank you for all the effort you are putting in to this, it’s very much appreciated.

Thank you very much for guiding me and for your confidence.

Bert