Many thanks

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

I agree with the intent and general direction. However a degree of flexibility is always welcome. If guides can only operate under such a structure, they might examine why. I am happy to answer questions or ignore them, just as guides do when it suits. This is to do with mutual respect.

Thanks for you responses. Let’s look at this one part at a time. You’ve observed that there’s a structure here and you see that as perhaps lacking flexibility.

Just to be clear at the start, there is no organisation or organised group behind this website – the guides, so called, are all just individuals offering a bit of time to try and support others to achieve awakening.

Direct pointing is not the only way to achieve awakening, but it’s the way that’s used here. Another method might be described as inner enquiry.

Whilst a two way question and answer dialogue might be a useful feature of inner enquiry, it’s not a part of direct pointing and is therefore not used on this website. If for example you look back at my own recent thread, you’ll note that none of my questions put to John were answered. Not answering your questions here is not about a lack of respect – it’s just not part of this system.

So why does direct pointing not work as a discussion?

Because it’s not primarily about the exchange of information. It’s about how you look, how you question, what you question and in what depth. If a guide asks a question the intention is for you to look deeply into it, with an open mind and honest enquiry and see what comes up. You can of course ignore it but that would be much the same as going to the gym and then ignoring the exercise equipment.

If you’ve got lots of questions you’d like to ask please feel free to link through to my blog (click the small world symbol under my name) and post them there or if you prefer, you can PM me and I’ll send you my email address to send them via email. I’d rather we looked at any questions you might have before going further, and I invite you to ask.

Let me know what you think and how you’d like to proceed. Very best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

I’d rather we looked at any questions you might have before going further, and I invite you to ask.

Let me know what you think and how you’d like to proceed. Very best wishes,

Hi Andrew,

I don't have any questions for now. As this is a process, I have no idea how the situation may change, so am quite willing to proceed on the basis of what arises.

many thanks
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

I've given quite a list below, it may seem randon, it's not. Can I ask that you take your time over it, I'd rather have slow thoughtful answers than quick responses, even if this takes more than a day.

The ‘self’ or sense of ‘I’ is an illusion rather than a real thing.

How do you feel about this statement – do you think it’s true or untrue? If you have a partial or tentative acceptance of it, what are the sticking points for you and why? Give a detailed answer if the latter is the case, please.

Have you read anything about someone or by someone that made you believe they were awakened? Who was it and why?

Describe to me in as much detail as you can what you feel yourself to be made up from – all of the non-physical component parts. Rather than writing a list, use at least one example to illustrate each one.

Name three aspects of the physical body that it shares in common with the area around it. Write one sentence for each but please make it clear what the reason is for your answer.

Do you believe in a soul? Explain your answer in as much detail as you can.

Lastly, when you read these questions what do you feel? What emotions arise? Can I ask that you take these emotions, or the memory of them, into your next meditation and reflect on the point at which they arose and what triggered them. What did you notice?

Many thanks,

Andrew

[Lobster]

The ‘self’ or sense of ‘I’ is an illusion rather than a real thing.

How do you feel about this statement – do you think it’s true or untrue? If you have a partial or tentative acceptance of it, what are the sticking points for you and why? Give a detailed answer if the latter is the case, please.

True.

Have you read anything about someone or by someone that made you believe they were awakened? Who was it and why?

I am not concerned with beliefs. Mine, yours or someone elses. Your question is void.

Describe to me in as much detail as you can what you feel yourself to be made up from – all of the non-physical component parts. Rather than writing a list, use at least one example to illustrate each one.

To what end? I am perfectly aware of the aggregates, in Buddhist terms 'the arisings'. As I do not feel I am made up of any of them, they would be a list of delusions. No sense in perpetuating or discussing nothing of value . . .

Name three aspects of the physical body that it shares in common with the area around it. Write one sentence for each but please make it clear what the reason is for your answer.

It has form. They both have a form that can be recognized by the mind.
They have no independent existence. Each is dependent on supporting structures, such as the space to exist in.
They can be sensed. Both are known through the senses.

Do you believe in a soul? Explain your answer in as much detail as you can.
No. No is as much detail.

Lastly, when you read these questions what do you feel? What emotions arise? Can I ask that you take these emotions, or the memory of them, into your next meditation and reflect on the point at which they arose and what triggered them. What did you notice?

The emotions arise in a mixture of negative and positive. Naming them gives them being. They arise and are triggered by the questions and dissipate into nothing existing anymore.

Many thanks for your attention
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

You seem familiar with aspects of Buddhism. Your statements about the non-existence of the 'I', the nature of the aggregates and lack of independent 'reality' of emotions are all views shared my many here. But the Buddha said something else: There is that which unborn, uncreated, unformed, unconditioned. If there was not the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unconditioned, there would be no escape from the born, the created the formed, the conditioned.

That to which the Buddha pointed in this statement cannot be rationally or empirically proved. That which is, which the Buddha and many others have pointed to cannot be conceptualised but can be directly experienced. It is a belief in that which is real. It is a statement which requires faith.

Without faith that such a statement might be true it is possible to adopt the standpoint: all is a temporary arising and passing away. There is nothing beyond this phenomenal existence - any inference that there might be is unprovable and therefore false.

However there is another way in which a standpoint might be accepted that does not require proof. A good many cases tried in a court of law cannot be proved but the verdict or decision is based on a case being 'proved beyond reasonale doubt' based not on absolute proof but on weight of evidence.

In the question of whether or not a human being can achieve a state of awakening, this cannot be proved. There is no empirical evidence or rational logic that will lead us to this conclusion. However, what we do have are the first hand account of sages, mystics and so-called enlightened beings down the ages.

Whilst one might adopt the standpoint that all of these individuals are deluded this would be to argue in the face of the evidence.

So here is the question: do you think that awakening - taking this to mean liberation as the term is applied in this forum - is possible? A simple yes or no will do but feel free to expand upon your answer if you wish.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

Hi Lobster,
You seem familiar with aspects of Buddhism. Your statements about the non-existence of the 'I', the nature of the aggregates and lack of independent 'reality' of emotions are all views shared by many here.

Hi Andrew,
indeed

But the Buddha said something else: There is that which unborn, uncreated, unformed, unconditioned. If there was not the unborn, uncreated, unformed, unconditioned, there would be no escape from the born, the created the formed, the conditioned.

That to which the Buddha pointed in this statement cannot be rationally or empirically proved. That which is, which the Buddha and many others have pointed to cannot be conceptualised but can be directly experienced. It is a belief in that which is real.

indeed

It is a statement which requires faith.

Perhaps. Perhaps not. It is self evident. No faith required.
What you perhaps mean, is it needs a testing of its veracity, which I would agree with.

So here is the question: do you think that awakening - taking this to mean liberation as the term is applied in this forum - is possible? A simple yes or no will do but feel free to expand upon your answer if you wish.

Yes.

And to save time, let us ask:
'What do you feel this awakening is?'

It is more than residing in an answer. Perhaps you would like to expand on that?

Many thanks for your kind attention
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

To take your last question first, I have expanded on awakening here: http://liberationdiaries.wordpress.com/ ... alisation/ . Please feel free to read and of course comment or question through the blog.

To get back to this thread, the aim is to facilitate, where possible, awakening through Direct Pointing. You are by now familiar, I hope, with what is meant by Direct Pointing.

However, on a number of occasions throughout this thread you have either not answered or given an apparently superficial answer to a question put by a ‘guide’.

To illustrate the reason for the questions put to you consider the following:
An art teacher asks a student to draw a picture of a flower and hands the student pencils and paper. The student responds that they do not wish to draw a flower as they have no interest in the subject and cannot see the value of it. Alternatively, the student produces a quick two minute sketch and returns it as if it represents their best work.

But what was the reason for the request? Did the art teacher ask for the drawing because they wanted a drawing of a flower? No, they have no interest in the artefact produced beyond that it serves to illustrate the applied skills of the student which they can assess.

Why then make the request? Because the teacher is aware that is important for the student to be able to competently draw natural forms and is using the exercise as an opportunity for the student to improve their skills through application.

To reflect this onto our own situation then. When you were asked for example: ‘When you wake up in the morning, what must be there first before Lobster comes into "being" (no trick question)?’ you responded, ‘Lack of unconsciousness.’

Whilst you may wish to defend this and other answers as being ‘your best effort’ it would be difficult to convince a third party that you have taken the time to observe closely the moments at which waking from sleep occurs and then reported honestly and in detail what you noticed.

There is as much to be gained from refusing to answer a question on this forum as for the art student who refuses to do art or who produces hurried work.

The factors that act as barriers to success in Direct Pointing may be summarised:
Doubt – of the principle, the system, the ‘guide’, or one’s own chances of success.

Lack of commitment – this seems self-explanatory however commitment may act either for or against in this process. If you wish to look at this more closely please contact me putside this forum to discuss further.

Attachment to views – views, ideas, perceived facts, knowledge: they all have their place but the relationship to these – how we ‘hold’ them can be a strongly determining factor in our success.

In terms of Direct Pointing then, this forum cannot and does not seek to support you with the first of these. Nor indeed can it do much about the second. Instead it focuses on the last in the hope that with doubt removed and commitment understood and forthcoming, the illusion of ‘self’ can be seen through with the support of a ‘guide’ who has themselves ‘awoken’.

I am, for my part willing to do what I can to support you as stated in my first post. However, other than the opportunities given above and in my previous posts for you to question and discuss through contacting me directly, the support is offerd here though Direct Pointing. If you are searching for a forum through which you can discuss ideas and reflect on aspects of awakening with others interested in the same, you may wish to research this further yourself. Please reflect on the above and let me know how you would like to proceed.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

Hi Lobster,

To take your last question first, I have expanded on awakening here: http://liberationdiaries.wordpress.com/ ... alisation/ . Please feel free to read and of course comment or question through the blog.

Hi Andrew,
Thanks for the blog reference on 'realisation'.

To get back to this thread, the aim is to facilitate, where possible, awakening through Direct Pointing. You are by now familiar, I hope, with what is meant by Direct Pointing.

yes

To reflect this onto our own situation then. When you were asked for example: ‘When you wake up in the morning, what must be there first before Lobster comes into "being" (no trick question)?’ you responded, ‘Lack of unconsciousness.’

The movement from unconsciousness to a conscious sense of being,
Goes something like this:
1. A sense of awareness without form
2. A sense of placement
3. A sense of awareness of the body
4. The arising of thoughts, memories, plans, commitments etc
Once all that is in place, the lack of unconsciousness is over

Please reflect on the above and let me know how you would like to proceed.

To the best of our mutual abilities

Many thanks for your kind attention

Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

There are questions posted below. When you read them dismiss the urge to reach for an answer. If a quick answer arises, fine, but don’t listen to it, that’s not what we’re after. The bit we’re concerned with is the looking.

Some of this looking will require thought but don’t allow yourself to lapse into a stream of thought. Allow pauses. Allow silence. Do not try to fill this silence. In fact the longer you can sustain awareness in the silence following thought the better.

The answer is only a reporting back of what is seen when you feel certain there’s no more to be seen.

The movement from unconsciousness to a conscious sense of being,
Goes something like this:
1. A sense of awareness without form
2. A sense of placement
3. A sense of awareness of the body
4. The arising of thoughts, memories, plans, commitments etc
Once all that is in place, the lack of unconsciousness is over

That’s good. Perfect observation in fact. In time we'll focus on no.1 but not yet. The object of reflection here is the arising in you mentioned in no.4.

In what way is this arising any different from any other arising? Consider this widely and at length.

At times throughout the day you will find emotive thoughts coming up. It might be a memory triggering an emotion, an act of imagination, or a thought triggered by something you’ve seen. We need to mark out these thoughts, we’re going to use them.

You may also find at times in your day emotions arising apparently through the situation in which you find yourself. It doesn’t matter what the situation is.

When an emotive thought arises or an emotion is triggered I want you to focus extremely clearly on it. With your attention focused inwards become aware of the ‘movement’ – the very movement from the point of stillness that each of these ‘generates’. Keep your awareness focused only on the movement. If you find yourself getting carried away with the content come immediately back to awareness of.

There is a slightly more advanced level of this - awareness of judgement. Quite simply a judgement is a reinforcing ‘tool’ for the sense of ‘self’. It creates and maintains the illusion of a separate object and subject. However it's movement is more subtle being less coarse than that of the emotions so not so easy to 'catch' at first.

I would like you to consider this part of your practice from now on because it takes practice. Become familiar with this movement, its origin and its cessation.

At the point of cessation ask, ‘What is it that moves?’

Do not reach for an answer, allow the question to be and be in the silence that follows the question. If an answer arises in time from the silence please report it back.

All I have to give me a feel for 'where you are' is the information you report back. Please consider this when answering.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

At the point of cessation ask, ‘What is it that moves?’

Hi Andrew,

1. TIme
2. Focus
3. Circumstances or surrounding factors

Cessation, just like the point of arrival is dependent on dwelling or an identification.

Many thanks
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

Cessation, just like the point of arrival is dependent on dwelling or an identification.

Explain more fully what you mean by ‘Cessation… is dependent on dwelling’. Explain this dependence.

An identification with what?

Please use a narrative style of writing in your answer. Resist the urge to label. Write in as much length and detail as you can.

Regarding these questions, stay with the technique previously noted: ask, don’t reach, just allow silence. If an answer arises report it. If not, stay patiently with the silence then ask again, allow silence… Each question is not to be asked once only but many times throughout the day. If you’re doing this properly there should be a lot of silence!

I don’t know what time zone you’re in but allow time for this. If expectations arise, use the technique outlined previously and watch them. They are simply a desire for things to be other than as they are. They are just an emotive thought. Will you observe them or be them?

Similarly if impatience arises – stay with it, observe it, observe the urge to movement.

There is no rush. We have all the time we need.

Best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

Cessation, just like the point of arrival is dependent on dwelling or an identification.

Hi Andrew,

Being in a condition of observation, whether of movement or the 'allowing of silence' feels quite natural. The cessation or 'allowing of silence' is just another dwelling I experience. So as it 'arrives', I feel its presence, or experience its nature only through 'identity' or dwelling in the silence. The process of arrival if observed, manifests. In other words, the focus becomes the nature of self. Quite clearly a dualistic technique reinforces the sense of self. 'Becoming aware of' or any such process, even narrative, takes me away from silence into identity.

Many thanks
Lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

I doubt any ‘guide’ here or any of those who have awakened could have expressed it more clearly or eloquently. I can detect no error or obstacle in what you have said.

Yet, as identified in your first post and subsequently, you feel there is still a ‘me’ or sense of ‘I’ present.

Can you confirm this is the case and if possible identify where you think the obstacles are. Can you express more fully what situations arise in which this sense of ‘I’ arises or in which there appears to be a ‘me’.

I would in this post have moved us on to look at issues of ownership and identification, but your answer above is so clearly stated, I wonder if your identification with ‘self’ is in fact rather more subtle.

It is not helpful for me to assume anything, but the word that catches my eye is ‘dwelling’ or perhaps more familiarly, ‘abiding’. If the question is really, ‘How do I move from a state of abiding to one of non-abiding?’, please let me know and we will focus our efforts here.

It is very helpful when you write longer and more detailed answers, please continue to do so.

Very best wishes,

Andrew

[Lobster]

Yet, as identified in your first post and subsequently, you feel there is still a ‘me’ or sense of ‘I’ present.

Can you confirm this is the case and if possible identify where you think the obstacles are. Can you express more fully what situations arise in which this sense of ‘I’ arises or in which there appears to be a ‘me’.

Hi Andrew,

Yes, I am still here.
An example would be this interaction, which requires an 'I' and a need to be aware in and through such a subjective condition. Another example would be any interaction that causes or connects to a reflective resonance, what is sometimes referred to as 'an arising', conflicted emotion, attachment, clinging etc.

It is not helpful for me to assume anything, but the word that catches my eye is ‘dwelling’ or perhaps more familiarly, ‘abiding’. If the question is really, ‘How do I move from a state of abiding to one of non-abiding?’, please let me know and we will focus our efforts here.

Abiding or dwelling is not quite correct. The question would be more like, 'How is pure awareness, without being increased'.

Many thanks for your kind attention
lobster

[Andrew White]

Hi Lobster,

this interaction, which requires an 'I'

Does it? Are you anbsolutley certain there is an 'I' required? As you sit treading these words, can you find an 'I'? The hands type, letters appear on the screen, can you sense where this 'I' is located?

Abiding or dwelling is not quite correct. The question would be more like, 'How is pure awareness, without being increased'.

When awakening occurs there may me a state of silent awareness or there may be awareness through the narrative content of life. In either condition there is no sense of personal ‘self’. It may seem in meditation or mindfulness that the ‘I’ is not present but this is because there is no arising through which it can be recognised or felt. It is still there like a black cat in a coal cellar and when the door opens and the narrative resumes, it leaps out.

So increasing ‘pure awareness’ is not your ‘exit’ from the sense of ‘self’, this is not your obstacle. But the awareness you have cultivated is very useful in helping to highlight where attachment still exists.

Wioth silent awareness and questioning strong emotions may arise at times. Have you felt this and how have you dealt with it?

Best wishes,

Andrew