Musername

[musername]

Possibly, but not likely.

Possibly? Looking ad infinitum? Wow. Don't believe that and sure hope you don't either. Why would this one even bother being on this site if you believe that?

Ha, alright, i'll give you a clue; "it's closer than your nose".

Gee, thanks.

musername wrote:
are simply thick as bricks

Thickness has nothing to do with it.

It's an expression. Thick as a brick. Not literally implied.

Here's another clue; When you recognize someone that you know, is there any work, or intelligence involved ? Did you DO anything to make the recognition occur ?

Yes, there's intelligence. Recognition implies something is RE cognized. There must be a memory of it. A brain as well for storage of this thought called memory.

Oh, and enjoy the frustration, it shakes up the 'normal' and makes the abnormal possible.

Really? Enjoy the frustration? Such an oxymoron... an enjoyed frustration. Did someone say that to you as well? Enjoy the frustration, Vince?

[vinceschubert]

Yes... will continue looking. Possibly ad infinitum.
vince replied; Possibly, but not likely.
Mary Beth said; Possibly? Looking ad infinitum? Wow. Don't believe that and sure hope you don't either. Why would this one even bother being on this site if you believe that?

When you said "..continue looking. Possibly ad infinitum.", i took the word "looking" to mean 'seeking'
Yes, it is true that there is no 'finished' to this, but seeking will stop and something more akin to discovery will be the norm, Possibly ad infinitum.

a clue; "it's closer than your nose".
Gee, thanks.

it's a serious pointer.

thick as bricks
Thickness has nothing to do with it.
It's an expression. Thick as a brick. Not literally implied.

i didn't take it literally. Having difficulty comprehending it is an irrelevant concept. This has nothing to do with understanding. But i do know the feeling you referred to.

Yes, there's intelligence.

Ok, but not much intelligence required. The smallest brained creature Recognizes. Perhaps we could debate if there is intelligence in pattern matching. (but we wont)
Do you get the point. Recognition requires No effort or conscious intent. It just happens.

Really? Enjoy the frustration?

i was saying "consider the frustration in a way that is not normal. That there is value in it if you don't simply succumb to the emotions that normally result from it"
It seem here that you are responding in this post from a rather aggressive and contrary mood...

love & compassion to MB

vince

[musername]

Hi Vince...

She's back after weeks of rambling stories that look like..

Vince is patronizing...
Vince is gloating that he's got something that i don't.
Vince gives 'clues' like it's a game.

This one grew up in a family of six brothers. You/Vince got the projection of years of interacting as the first-born girl after four boys. Craziness. Lots was burned away, tho'. That's the good news.

So my apologies for the disappearance without explanation.

MB

[vinceschubert]

So my apologies for the disappearance without explanation.

No worries Mary Beth.

Vince is patronizing...
Vince is gloating that he's got something that i don't.
Vince gives 'clues' like it's a game.

You say stories, but do you Really recognize them as stories ?

Vince gives 'clues' like it's a game.

i can only point at something that you must experience for any 'shift' to occur. Passing on knowledge is useless. Your head is already full of useless information. If this could be transferred with information, wouldn't everybody be liberated by now ?

Lots was burned away, tho'. That's the good news.

So, give me a rant about where you are now.

[musername]

You say stories, but do you Really recognize them as stories ?

Really recognize? Yes. Or I would have gone on my merry way still believing:

Vince is patronizing...
Vince is gloating that he's got something that i don't.
Vince gives 'clues' like it's a game.

i can only point at something that you must experience for any 'shift' to occur. Passing on knowledge is useless. Your head is already full of useless information. If this could be transferred with information, wouldn't everybody be liberated by now ?

I don't know. It would imply there's choice involved. Seems there isn't. But that could be a story as well.

And ranting? Well, if there is one, it is only in the tenaciousness of the belief that MB is real. Sort of like being in what Catholics used to term 'Limbo.' A space where unbaptized babies (and others not baptized) hover.. or exist. A place for just hanging out, not heaven, not hell. Not the glitziness of 'seeing' God, yet not the eternal fires of hell either. Hocus pocus, yes. But the description given in first grade comes to mind when you ask for a rant. UNCLE!.. may be another way of expressing what's going on here. I give.

[musername]

Still trying to figure out how to use B (bold), I (italicize), etc. Seems not to show up. Sorry all the dialogue appears in the same font.

[vinceschubert]

Still trying to figure out how to use B (bold), I (italicize), etc. Seems not to show up.

Just highlight the words you want to style and click B or i above. Somewhat the same for quotes. Only this time after you have hit reply and the reply post editor is open, then go to the previous post below and highlight what you want to quote and click quote at the top of that post and it will put it in the editor enclosed in code.

Really recognize? Yes.

When you recognized them as stories, what was your reaction ?

It would imply there's choice involved. Seems there isn't.

Say more on choice.

it is only in the tenaciousness of the belief that MB is real

Is there experiencing of this ? How does it manifest ?

UNCLE!.. may be another way of expressing what's going on here. I give.

Is it really a surrender ? Say more about this.

love

[musername]

[quote="vinceschubert"]When you recognized them as stories, what was your reaction ?

Familiarity. These stories show up regularly... and the projection is noticed usually after the emotions have subsided.

It would imply there's choice involved. Seems there isn't.
Say more on choice.

There is none, even though thoughts try to convince otherwise. There is a gauzy realization of that... the futility of thinking there's something that can be done to nudge through 'the gate.' Again... no man's land of the belief that 'I' am not through the gate.

This seems to appear on a regular basis on this forum. (And the word 'appear' has all its qualifiers, of course.) The 'pushing' to answer the final set of questions as to whether one is 'through' the gate or not. As if it's a contest to see how many greens a red can get through the gate. And then the green is expressing that they don't feel they 'get' it. And with this... there is pressure (for me) to get it done. To get to the final set of questions, when really, it still appears there's someone believing she's real... and not batman yet.

Choice. Don't have one. So patience seems to be the flavor of the month... or the daily one, anyway.

musername wrote:
it is only in the tenaciousness of the belief that MB is real
Is there experiencing of this ? How does it manifest ?

In the body as tension... as if there is time. As if there is something in the body that is ticking away. There is a feeling of being hurried up by thoughts that are believed about a beginning, a middle and an end scenario. The story of a me.

musername wrote:
UNCLE!.. may be another way of expressing what's going on here. I give.
Is it really a surrender ? Say more about this.[/quote

Yes, but truly... what can surrender? And surrender what? The story that there is a thing called enlightenment? There is a deeply-held belief there is something to it. That no matter what all the teachers say about there not really being this thing called enlightenment, this one ain't buyin' it. Otherwise, why would there be a forum called LU? Or why would folks travel miles to hang out with 'the enlightened ones?' What else is going on except for freedom? And freedom from what? The belief that there is something/someone that ISN"T free?

Sound of hair-pulling.

[vinceschubert]

These stories show up regularly... and the projection is noticed usually after the emotions have subsided.

You may find that the noticing starts to show up earlier. Somewhere between the story and the emotional reaction, or even interrupt the reaction, part way through. This will usually take the wind out of the emotion.

The 'pushing' to answer the final set of questions as to whether one is 'through' the gate or not. As if it's a contest to see how many greens a red can get through the gate.

Of course, i (and i presume others) 'want' to see as many people through the gate as possible. There is nobody keeping score, so there is no contest. i would have no idea how many people i have helped or other guides have. As to the 'pushing', yes sometimes it does take a push to tip someone from their comfort zone, and sometimes it seems here that someone is through even though their doubt thoughts tell them that they aren't. Once a guide thinks a person is through and that person also says that they are through, there needs to be 3 other guides who agree and NO guide with doubts, before someone is confirmed. Once that happens the persons color is made blue and the 'journey' really starts.

it still appears there's someone(?) believing she's real..

"appears" and "believing" are the crux of the matter. How can we investigate these for what is true ?

So patience seems to be the flavor of the month... or the daily one, anyway.

That is good, but.. but there is a trap here too. Patience implies waiting. Waiting for something to happen in the future, when what we are looking for is already here, and will be seen NOW. It won't come to you. It will be SEEN as already BEING.

How does it manifest ?
In the body as tension... as if there is time. As if there is something in the body that is ticking away. There is a feeling of being hurried up by thoughts that are believed about a beginning, a middle and an end scenario. The story of a me.

So would you say that the "tension" is anticipation, or frustration, or what ?
It is excellent that you see the process of the body responding to story.

but truly... whast can surrender? And surrender what?

Yes, you are correct on one level. A level that you are not yet at (my story), so are you just repeating something ? ..or is this something you are experiencing ?
At the 'level' that is relevant to you, Surrendering doesn't need a who or what to surrender, neither is it surrendering something. It is an attitude. One of being open to whatever occurs. No resistance. Can you grok this ?

The story that there is a thing called enlightenment? There is a deeply-held belief there is something to it. That no matter what all the teachers say about there not really being this thing called enlightenment, this one ain't buyin' it

Well good ! Otherwise you wouldn't be here.
It is a tricky one, as language and mind aren't adequate to communicate 'it'. From a seekers perspective there is Enlightenment, but when a seeker 'gets' enlightenment, it ceases to exist. It's the gateless gate thing. It's there until you are through, but when you look back it never existed. Don't worry about this now, it will be seen by MB...

love

[musername]

So would you say that the "tension" is anticipation, or frustration, or what ?

It feels like resignation, to be honest with you. After so many years of this and that... authentically peeking behind every corner, what else can happen but a resignation. And there is something that is okay with that... not arguing with what is. There are just numerous experiences that were so outrageously magnificent that the tendency is to compare the story of enlightenment to those from the past. And yes, all of that is the nothingness as well. The mind has them separated into compartments when it has the reigns. And yet in the experience of nothingness, it melts. But there must be something that likes this state of duality. Some paltry pay-offs.

but truly... whast can surrender? And surrender what?

Yes, you are correct on one level. A level that you are not yet at (my story), so are you just repeating something ? ..or is this something you are experiencing ?

The physical feelings indicate that there is something from the past that is being repeated. Something from the guru, the teachings, or the sangha. Holy silliness, it seems. There is something loving the idea of surrendering... giving the hell up. And yet, that's where the waiting seems to arise. So obviously it ain't the real deal. Surrendering is a no doing thing. I know this. Have been swirled 'in' it.

At the 'level' that is relevant to you, Surrendering doesn't need a who or what to surrender, neither is it surrendering something. It is an attitude. One of being open to whatever occurs. No resistance. Can you grok this ?

Oh yea. I'm game. But there's the paradox. In the game, attempting to appear as though not moving the li'l man around the board. Trying not to try. Trying not to do. Hysterically insane.



love[/quote]

[vinceschubert]

It feels like resignation,

What are the differences between "resignation" and surrender ?

here are just numerous experiences that were so outrageously magnificent

As magnificent as they were, they could only be experienced from a dualistic perspective. Do you See this ?

But there must be something that likes this state of duality. Some paltry pay-offs.

..maybe. Can you see that duality is as much an illusion as a separate self ?
You can't be stuck in what doesn't exist. When Mary Beth SEEs, nothing changes. It will simply be Seen as it IS. It's 'there' now. It's the seeing that is distorted.

And yet, that's where the waiting seems to arise.

Do you think that the waiting is just a ploy that is the result of fear ?

Trying not to try. Trying not to do. Hysterically insane.

Yes. Here's a Haiku i wrote from a similar 'place'
i do, i don't do.
i watch it all then accept,
i do, i don't do.

..and here's one for you;
trying not to try
trying not to do trying
i laugh 'till i cry.