Hello:
I have practiced within a particular Buddhist group for about 20 years, being ordained (a recognition of commitment) with the name Satyadhana several years ago, but many still call me Kevin Schanilec. At ordination I was given a certain set of practices, but I soon realized those practices didn’t work for me, and the ensuing years have been a largely self-directed quest for insight. I would sincerely appreciate any feedback on where I am at.
Coming from a Buddhist group which more or less frowns on expressions of insight and attainment, this is a conversation I have been wanting to have with someone for some time. Just writing this has meant getting clearer, getting used to communicating about the subject, pruning it down to what I truly believe - incredibly valuable in and of itself. Thank you for making this forum available, and to Tejananda for pointing me here.
Mine has been a gradual process, starting with focusing on impermanence, but my decidedly analytical mind couldn’t get past a “me” that observed the impermanence of an “object”: a dualistic dead end. One day I decided to focus on emptiness rather than impermanence, and looked at my experience from that perspective. What had been my “mind” suddenly opened out into a vast expanse of space, as if I had pushed a long-forgotten button to a secret passage. I learned later that I had stumbled upon Mahamudra, and did that practice for a while. Watching how my experience was composed of transient thoughts and images, dependent on what my mind and physical senses were delivering, was very valuable. I realized the empty nature of mind, but there was still a strong sense of a self, an observer, whose mind was empty. I would search for “me” and get a strange knot in my stomach and experience waves of electric energy that could literally make me shake and quiver, as if whatever was there did not want to be disturbed. I was afraid of letting go of the self: what would remain?
In March of last year, I came across the Culasunnata Sutta, which concludes with realizing that what remains in emptiness are the six sense bases, which even an Arhat still has assuming he is alive in a human body. I immediately resonated with it. I finally had an answer that I agreed with in my bones. What remains is precisely that which has always been there: one’s basic experience, and nothing more. I started in on the formless sphere practice described in the sutta, and on April 23, sitting in a hotel room on a business trip, I began seeing that, rather than a self, all I have is experience, what the sense bases (physical senses and mind, etc.) deliver, nothing more. What I make of that input is ultimately my choice: I am at complete freedom within that.
It was during a solitary retreat last July that I believe I fully saw the self for the illusion that it is: something I have created and supported over time, but which simply isn’t there. It wasn't a big singular event or anything: after one meditation session, I felt strangely different, and realized that I no longer had access to anything I could call a self. I suppose I had been building up to it, and the practice is rather forward-looking towards the later fetters such that you pretty much have to abandon the notion of self to get through it, so I might have missed the actual instant when the self evaporated. My response was along the lines of “well, whaddaya know...”.
I decided to let a few weeks/months elapse after the retreat and see if I still come to the same conclusion, and I do: there simply isn’t a separate or enduring “me” or “self” in any way, nor has there ever been one. Self is a convention, not fact. There was never anything that actually needed letting go of, other than my efforts to sustain a continuing mistake. It struck me that an incredible amount of content has to hang together to have a self, and so much time and energy is needed to maintain it. A phrase that occurred to me is that “I can't take myself seriously anymore”: there is no “me” that I can possibly satisfy, actualize, or find: there simply isn’t anything there. It’s a pointless endeavor, if not worse.
What is the self? As I do it, formless sphere practice shows how one goes from basic perceptual experience to assuming there are things, then giving them attributes and a place in space and time. From there, let the grasping and clinging begin! This process of going from basic experience to an erroneous four-dimensional world was a well-worn, lightning-fast process. At some point in the distant past, I assumed or inferred that a self exists, and much of what I had said (“This is my car”, etc.), thought and done since then was from this perspective, which only served to reinforce it. Unless that assumption is questioned, it more or less self-propagates. In a way, “self” is a bad habit, a continuation of a mistaken conclusion.
Seeing through this illusion about “me”, a peace that I had not thought possible has settled in. Since then, I have not felt the palpable levels of frustration, desire, fear, tenseness, and resistance that I had always struggled with. Life seems to just flow now, without being so concerned about what might or might not happen next. I do things because they need to be done, rather than because “I” want them done. Following the ethical precepts is spontaneous now, rather than being a set of imposed rules. Those frequent mental narratives and fantasies about being a hero, long a favorite, have lost their appeal, as have certain hobbies and other distractions: I understand the role they had but I just don't see the point anymore. In dealing with difficult people, it feels like their stuff flows through me rather than causing a reaction, and I am able to engage in situations I normally would shy away from. I am more willing to be honest about what I am thinking and feeling.
If I do get caught up in something and get tense or agitated, intoning “experience” brings me back to what I actually am able to know in any given situation, and intoning “nothing” puts things back in their proper place. I realize what happens is that I have an ingrained habit of referring my experience to a presumed “headquarters” for a decision on what to do, and that there are certain situations where my self-oriented response was so visceral and predictable that I just got used to responding in a certain way. So, I need to stop and realize “Oh yeah, I don't have anything to refer this experience to...” and then move on.
Life is not perfect, and there is much still to do, but it feels like a permanent shift of perspective, a return to where I could/should have been all along, and I have a deep, gentle confidence that I am on the right track. It isn’t what I thought it would be: it just seems, well, happily normal. It’s been humbling and empowering at the same time, with a sense of relief that there’s so much that no longer has to be done or thought. I still use the words “I” and “me” in daily life; however, “me” is more of a snapshot in time than anything else, whatever it is that I am experiencing at a particular moment. When I search for “me”, there is nothing: all I find are the sensations generally construed as “body” and whatever else happens to be flying through my mind at the time. I've realized I can use the word “me” and not be fooled by it.
If someone new to all this were interested in the illusory self and were to ask me about it, I would tell them that the illusion of separate self is the habitual belief that there is something fixed, unique and lasting about “me”. The illusion can seep into every corner of one's life, and operate on such subtle levels as to be unnoticeable. Like rigid billiard balls, the illusory self collides and reacts with other selves. In spite of the most obvious indications that there really isn't a self, the pain, disappointment and fear, the illusion reflexively maintains its boundaries, and is particularly strengthened whenever we encounter something very desirable or very threatening. However, it doesn’t have to be that way.
I would ask them why they thought they had a self: what information do you have that supports this conclusion? Is it the recurring pattern of thoughts, feelings and all else you experience? As a start, look at those thoughts and emotions: where did they come from? Where do they go to? Can you pin them down for any period of time? How do you know you have a body: where do you get that information? Isn’t that just another set of thoughts which come and go? This menagerie of thoughts and images comprises the content of our experience. The mind is an amazingly flexible and creative thing, and it is understandable that you could infer or assume a “self” behind all that (and don’t worry: pretty much everyone has). Humans even made up gods to explain the tides, why the sun rises and sets, etc., assuming there was someone behind all that as well, but closer inspection eventually showed it wasn't the case. A closer looks reveals that there isn't a personal self, either.
If you're open to the possibility that all this can happen without a “me” calling the shots, with stillness and a sense of inquiry, go ahead and look for “me”, look for a self. I can tell you about the illusory self, but I can’t show it to you. In the end you have to see the illusion of “me” within your own experience, the only reliable information you have. At that point, it’s no longer inference or supposition: what you see is what you get. Just pay attention to what is actually there, without elaborating or interpreting it. What you’ll find is that the self is neither within nor without: calling its name, nothing is found, nothing shows itself. All that you find is raw experience that need not be interpreted in any particular way. Keep looking until you’re sure: it’s an incredibly convincing illusion. Also, be patient: it could take a lot of time to unlearn some deeply-ingrained habits. Don’t worry, this isn’t nihilism: you will always have some form of experience, but you can also have clarity as to what that experience represents. “Me” can be a presumed separate self, or a conventional placeholder for the current snapshot of your experience: you really can know the difference.
Peace - Satyadhana
Feedback welcome!
Re: Feedback welcome!
Sixth Patriarch
Hello Satya(dhana)' , Kevin Shanilec.....:
Obviously you are well versed in Buddhism....fascinating story...which resonated (rightly/wrongly or indifferently ) with this character" Larsie", since it is almost like deja vue here. What helped me with a lot of "things" you mention was the 6th Cha'n patriarch's story (Hui-neng). Please forgive me if this is "old hat"....just try to communicate/help (for whatever it is worth to you):
The first chapter of the Platform Sutra tells the well-known apocryphal story of the Dharma-transmission from Hongren to Hui-neng. Hongren asked his students to...
... write me a stanza (gatha)....... He who understands what the Essence of Mind is will be given the robe (the insignia of the Patriarchate) and the Dharma (the ultimate teaching of the Chán school), and I shall make him the Sixth Patriarch.
Only Shenxiu wrote a poem, anonymously on the wall in the middle of the night.It stated:
身是菩提樹， The body is a Bodhi tree,
心如明鏡臺。 The mind a standing mirror bright.
時時勤拂拭， At all times polish it diligently,
勿使惹塵埃。 And let no dust alight.
After having read this poem aloud to him, Hui-neng ( who was illiterate) asked an officer to write another gatha on the wall for him, next to Shenxiu's, which stated:
菩提本無樹， Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
明鏡亦非臺。 The bright mirror is also not a stand.
本來無一物， Fundamentally there is not a single thing —
何處惹塵埃。 Where could any dust be attracted?
Hongren read the stanza, and received Huineng in his abode, where he expounded the Diamond Sutra to him. When he came to the passage, "to use the mind yet be free from any attachment," Huineng came to great awakening. He exclaimed:
"How amazing that the self nature is originally pure! How amazing that the self nature is unborn and undying! How amazing that the self nature is inherently complete! How amazing that the self nature neither moves nor stays! How amazing that all dharmas come from this self nature!
Hongren then passed the robe and begging bowl as a symbol of the Dharma Seal of Sudden Enlightenment to Huineng.
Just throw it in the dustbin, if it is all irrelevant BS to you.......Bankei used to say..."everything is resolved in the Unborn....."
Peace -- Larsie
Hello Satya(dhana)' , Kevin Shanilec.....:
Obviously you are well versed in Buddhism....fascinating story...which resonated (rightly/wrongly or indifferently ) with this character" Larsie", since it is almost like deja vue here. What helped me with a lot of "things" you mention was the 6th Cha'n patriarch's story (Hui-neng). Please forgive me if this is "old hat"....just try to communicate/help (for whatever it is worth to you):
The first chapter of the Platform Sutra tells the well-known apocryphal story of the Dharma-transmission from Hongren to Hui-neng. Hongren asked his students to...
... write me a stanza (gatha)....... He who understands what the Essence of Mind is will be given the robe (the insignia of the Patriarchate) and the Dharma (the ultimate teaching of the Chán school), and I shall make him the Sixth Patriarch.
Only Shenxiu wrote a poem, anonymously on the wall in the middle of the night.It stated:
身是菩提樹， The body is a Bodhi tree,
心如明鏡臺。 The mind a standing mirror bright.
時時勤拂拭， At all times polish it diligently,
勿使惹塵埃。 And let no dust alight.
After having read this poem aloud to him, Hui-neng ( who was illiterate) asked an officer to write another gatha on the wall for him, next to Shenxiu's, which stated:
菩提本無樹， Bodhi is fundamentally without any tree;
明鏡亦非臺。 The bright mirror is also not a stand.
本來無一物， Fundamentally there is not a single thing —
何處惹塵埃。 Where could any dust be attracted?
Hongren read the stanza, and received Huineng in his abode, where he expounded the Diamond Sutra to him. When he came to the passage, "to use the mind yet be free from any attachment," Huineng came to great awakening. He exclaimed:
"How amazing that the self nature is originally pure! How amazing that the self nature is unborn and undying! How amazing that the self nature is inherently complete! How amazing that the self nature neither moves nor stays! How amazing that all dharmas come from this self nature!
Hongren then passed the robe and begging bowl as a symbol of the Dharma Seal of Sudden Enlightenment to Huineng.
Just throw it in the dustbin, if it is all irrelevant BS to you.......Bankei used to say..."everything is resolved in the Unborn....."
Peace -- Larsie
Re: Feedback welcome!
Thanks Larsie - I remember reading that passage quite a while back: thank you for bringing it back to mind! Polishing something that isn't there pretty much sums up so much of what people do.
Satyadhana
Satyadhana
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Satya,
I'm happy to be your guide if you wish.
If you haven't already seen it the LU way, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. Please read.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
A few agreements before we can begin:
1. You agree to try post at least every day.
2. I will post questions. Do not attempt to answer them with thoughts or memories or stories about your personal life dramas. Set reasoning, computing and trying to understand, aside. Instead, communicate to me the response that you “directly experience” (by “direct experience” we refer to The moment to moment felt experience, or what’s happening right now, conscious knowing.) Here is an article by Rupert Spira on “direct experience”: http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read ... l_there_is
This is another article on direct experience http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html
IOW, do not tell me what you “think” or “believe” or heard in a talk or read about. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself, without mental stories.
3. When you answer, you answer with 110% honestly,.
Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Do not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
Do you agree to the above?
6. Please learn to use the quote function.
I'm happy to be your guide if you wish.
If you haven't already seen it the LU way, there is intro info here, our disclaimer and a short video too. Please read.
http://www.liberationunleashed.com/
A few agreements before we can begin:
1. You agree to try post at least every day.
2. I will post questions. Do not attempt to answer them with thoughts or memories or stories about your personal life dramas. Set reasoning, computing and trying to understand, aside. Instead, communicate to me the response that you “directly experience” (by “direct experience” we refer to The moment to moment felt experience, or what’s happening right now, conscious knowing.) Here is an article by Rupert Spira on “direct experience”: http://non-duality.rupertspira.com/read ... l_there_is
This is another article on direct experience http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html
IOW, do not tell me what you “think” or “believe” or heard in a talk or read about. The questions are to position you to SEE, to DISCOVER, to RECOGNISE something for yourself, without mental stories.
3. When you answer, you answer with 110% honestly,.
Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
5. Do not expect a transfer of knowledge. We are not teachers.
Do you agree to the above?
6. Please learn to use the quote function.
Re: Feedback welcome!
Thank you Larsie for taking the time for me, and would very much appreciate working with you. I have read and agree with the agreements, and am ready to start.Hi Satya,
I'm happy to be your guide if you wish.
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Satya, My name is Lars :-)
Expectations of how it should be are the greatest block I've seen to SEEing.
So… I have the following questions for you.
Please tell me as fully as possible what you think liberation is, and what you want or expect from it. What have you learned that it will be like? What do you think needs to happen for it to be real liberation? What apprehensions if any do you have about liberation.
I am looking forward to your response tomorrow!
Thanks,
Lars
Expectations of how it should be are the greatest block I've seen to SEEing.
So… I have the following questions for you.
Please tell me as fully as possible what you think liberation is, and what you want or expect from it. What have you learned that it will be like? What do you think needs to happen for it to be real liberation? What apprehensions if any do you have about liberation.
I am looking forward to your response tomorrow!
Thanks,
Lars
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Lars:
Thanks again for taking the time for me - I really do appreciate it.
Please tell me as fully as possible what you think liberation is, and what you want or expect from it.
I don't see liberation as a reified thing, but more a way to describe how one responds to one's experience. I think liberation is freedom: freedom to respond in the best possible way for all, without being sidetracked and talked out of it by a voice that says "but...": that's the illusion talking. Liberation is not having to think, do or say anything from a selfish perspective. It may be getting into some deep water to say that that liberation is freedom FROM anything, since the perceived hindrances to liberation aren't really there to begin with. Maybe best to say that liberation is freedom from having any interpretations of my experience that result in pain and frustration, freedom from confusion about what my experience is really all about.
What do I want or expect from liberation? While some of the final results may match up with the types of things I aspire to now, I think part of the process is getting rid of personal preferences and expectations. For instance, one characterization of liberation could be of profound equanimity and peace: good luck attaining to those by harboring personal desires and expectations. I think liberation is what it is, it is its own reward: progress towards liberation, and the positive experiences will follow.
What have you learned that it will be like?
From books, I've learned that it's utter peace and equanimity, the ability to truly accept and appreciate everybody and everything, to fully embrace experience. It's beyond words, beyond categories, beyond the internal struggles we impose by partitioning ourselves off. Just be.
So far, my personal experience is that it's about seeing through what isn't real in order to open up to what is real. It feels like I am getting back to where I started, before I assembled a self, before I found my feet as a little baby (or whenever it started) and started to see things in terms of self and other. The result is a steady shift from tension to ease, desire/disappointment to acceptance. Life is a heck of a lot easier without an insatiable self constantly trying to gets its way.
What do you think needs to happen for it to be real liberation?
Complete acquiescence to the way things really are. No residual considerations or reservations, an unconditional surrender. I can't bend reality to my own rules. Real liberation is being completely real, completely in harmony with the way things really are. You can't impose your own structure on reality: just open up and take it all in just as it is.
What apprehensions if any do you have about liberation?
Boy, do I know about apprehension, fear of what will or what won't happen next: story of my life for many years. Fear is subsiding, something I can look at now and watch disappear, more habit than anything else, and I believe in my bones it will only get better. Having nothing of "mine" to protect or preserve, gain or lose, it takes apprehension out of the equation. I can care more about others, connect better with them, get more done and am more fully in my life. The self has been having quite a party for 50 years, so cleaning up the mess will be challenging and may take a while, but I have no apprehensions about where things are going.
Peace - Satya
Thanks again for taking the time for me - I really do appreciate it.
Please tell me as fully as possible what you think liberation is, and what you want or expect from it.
I don't see liberation as a reified thing, but more a way to describe how one responds to one's experience. I think liberation is freedom: freedom to respond in the best possible way for all, without being sidetracked and talked out of it by a voice that says "but...": that's the illusion talking. Liberation is not having to think, do or say anything from a selfish perspective. It may be getting into some deep water to say that that liberation is freedom FROM anything, since the perceived hindrances to liberation aren't really there to begin with. Maybe best to say that liberation is freedom from having any interpretations of my experience that result in pain and frustration, freedom from confusion about what my experience is really all about.
What do I want or expect from liberation? While some of the final results may match up with the types of things I aspire to now, I think part of the process is getting rid of personal preferences and expectations. For instance, one characterization of liberation could be of profound equanimity and peace: good luck attaining to those by harboring personal desires and expectations. I think liberation is what it is, it is its own reward: progress towards liberation, and the positive experiences will follow.
What have you learned that it will be like?
From books, I've learned that it's utter peace and equanimity, the ability to truly accept and appreciate everybody and everything, to fully embrace experience. It's beyond words, beyond categories, beyond the internal struggles we impose by partitioning ourselves off. Just be.
So far, my personal experience is that it's about seeing through what isn't real in order to open up to what is real. It feels like I am getting back to where I started, before I assembled a self, before I found my feet as a little baby (or whenever it started) and started to see things in terms of self and other. The result is a steady shift from tension to ease, desire/disappointment to acceptance. Life is a heck of a lot easier without an insatiable self constantly trying to gets its way.
What do you think needs to happen for it to be real liberation?
Complete acquiescence to the way things really are. No residual considerations or reservations, an unconditional surrender. I can't bend reality to my own rules. Real liberation is being completely real, completely in harmony with the way things really are. You can't impose your own structure on reality: just open up and take it all in just as it is.
What apprehensions if any do you have about liberation?
Boy, do I know about apprehension, fear of what will or what won't happen next: story of my life for many years. Fear is subsiding, something I can look at now and watch disappear, more habit than anything else, and I believe in my bones it will only get better. Having nothing of "mine" to protect or preserve, gain or lose, it takes apprehension out of the equation. I can care more about others, connect better with them, get more done and am more fully in my life. The self has been having quite a party for 50 years, so cleaning up the mess will be challenging and may take a while, but I have no apprehensions about where things are going.
Peace - Satya
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Satya,
Thank you so much for your response.
My earlier reply vanished in cyberspace, so let's do this again.
I have the following observations/ questions for you:
1.liberation suggests bondage. Do you believe you are in bondage and that there is a process you can do to get out of it?
2. Do you believe that "equanimity, peace etc" will be a result of liberation and will as a consequence bring "positive experience"?
3. Books are all the same... paper, ink and words (read thousands of them). Can you please drop all of them and focus on this?
4. "...you are going back to "....where "I" started (separation initiation)....when was that? Where was "Satya" before your parents were born?
5....unconditional surrender..." Done by whom?
6. What is "completely real" and how would it be known by whom?
7. Could you please embrace your fear and describe what happens? The "me" always resists, but what what is resisted will persist. This character is here for you all the way. Have courage and be brutally honest.
No answers from the brain, but from your heart. Philosophical analyses are almost worthless.
Looking forward to our next heart-to-heart.
Peace my friend (btw make me a friend on face-book please)
Thank you so much for your response.
My earlier reply vanished in cyberspace, so let's do this again.
I have the following observations/ questions for you:
1.liberation suggests bondage. Do you believe you are in bondage and that there is a process you can do to get out of it?
2. Do you believe that "equanimity, peace etc" will be a result of liberation and will as a consequence bring "positive experience"?
3. Books are all the same... paper, ink and words (read thousands of them). Can you please drop all of them and focus on this?
4. "...you are going back to "....where "I" started (separation initiation)....when was that? Where was "Satya" before your parents were born?
5....unconditional surrender..." Done by whom?
6. What is "completely real" and how would it be known by whom?
7. Could you please embrace your fear and describe what happens? The "me" always resists, but what what is resisted will persist. This character is here for you all the way. Have courage and be brutally honest.
No answers from the brain, but from your heart. Philosophical analyses are almost worthless.
Looking forward to our next heart-to-heart.
Peace my friend (btw make me a friend on face-book please)
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Lars:
Thank you for the probing questions and cutting through the words. The words come so quickly, blurring the fact that they are not the actual experience. I appreciate you hanging in there with me.
Lots of looking done the last 24 hours – here's where I'm at:
1. Liberation suggests bondage. Do you believe you are in bondage and that there is a process you can do to get out of it?
No, “bondage” is a thought, which implies a “process from bondage”, another thought on a slippery slope.
2. Do you believe that "equanimity, peace etc" will be a result of liberation and will as a consequence bring "positive experience"?
No. Equanimity and peace are thoughts, making it seem like there is something actually there. I was sitting last night in a hall waiting for a jazz concert to begin, and the thought arose “this is peaceful”, followed by feelings of agitation around wanting to extend that feeling of peace. So, I looked for “peace” as well as someone who was feeling peaceful: nothing there, and returned to the experience of “sitting” without any agitation.
3/4. Books are all the same... paper, ink and words (read thousands of them). Can you please drop all of them and focus on this? "...you are going back to "....where "I" started (separation initiation)....when was that? Where was "Satya" before your parents were born?
When the delusion started, I couldn't say, but it was a very long time ago. However, there never really was a separation or an “I”. “Kevin”, “Satya”, etc. have never existed, so asking when the “I” started or where “he” was before my parents is a moot point, sorta like “how big are the lips on a chicken?”.
5....unconditional surrender..." Done by whom?
Nobody surrenders, there is no self that surrenders. “Surrender” is a word, a label on a thought, part of the delusion.
6. What is "completely real" and how would it be known by whom?
It's an abstraction, really. It sounds neat, but there's nothing to it: “being real” implies that there is someone being real, and the illusion starts up again. There is no one, no self that can be real or know that “I am being real”.
7. Could you please embrace your fear and describe what happens? The "me" always resists, but what what is resisted will persist. This character is here for you all the way. Have courage and be brutally honest.
Embracing the fear, that there is no self in the background to fall back on or crawl into when things get confusing: there's feelings of vulnerability and being exposed, then images of worst-case scenarios of how confusing and painful things can be/have been. If I then ask “who is afraid?”, there isn't anyone there: just the feelings around the fear with some unpleasant bodily sensations. Watching those feelings and thoughts, or simply focusing on something else, they dissolve.
Satya
PS - no FB account any more, but I'll resurrect it.
Thank you for the probing questions and cutting through the words. The words come so quickly, blurring the fact that they are not the actual experience. I appreciate you hanging in there with me.
Lots of looking done the last 24 hours – here's where I'm at:
1. Liberation suggests bondage. Do you believe you are in bondage and that there is a process you can do to get out of it?
No, “bondage” is a thought, which implies a “process from bondage”, another thought on a slippery slope.
2. Do you believe that "equanimity, peace etc" will be a result of liberation and will as a consequence bring "positive experience"?
No. Equanimity and peace are thoughts, making it seem like there is something actually there. I was sitting last night in a hall waiting for a jazz concert to begin, and the thought arose “this is peaceful”, followed by feelings of agitation around wanting to extend that feeling of peace. So, I looked for “peace” as well as someone who was feeling peaceful: nothing there, and returned to the experience of “sitting” without any agitation.
3/4. Books are all the same... paper, ink and words (read thousands of them). Can you please drop all of them and focus on this? "...you are going back to "....where "I" started (separation initiation)....when was that? Where was "Satya" before your parents were born?
When the delusion started, I couldn't say, but it was a very long time ago. However, there never really was a separation or an “I”. “Kevin”, “Satya”, etc. have never existed, so asking when the “I” started or where “he” was before my parents is a moot point, sorta like “how big are the lips on a chicken?”.
5....unconditional surrender..." Done by whom?
Nobody surrenders, there is no self that surrenders. “Surrender” is a word, a label on a thought, part of the delusion.
6. What is "completely real" and how would it be known by whom?
It's an abstraction, really. It sounds neat, but there's nothing to it: “being real” implies that there is someone being real, and the illusion starts up again. There is no one, no self that can be real or know that “I am being real”.
7. Could you please embrace your fear and describe what happens? The "me" always resists, but what what is resisted will persist. This character is here for you all the way. Have courage and be brutally honest.
Embracing the fear, that there is no self in the background to fall back on or crawl into when things get confusing: there's feelings of vulnerability and being exposed, then images of worst-case scenarios of how confusing and painful things can be/have been. If I then ask “who is afraid?”, there isn't anyone there: just the feelings around the fear with some unpleasant bodily sensations. Watching those feelings and thoughts, or simply focusing on something else, they dissolve.
Satya
PS - no FB account any more, but I'll resurrect it.
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Satya,
I loved your response and read them several times. Here are some more observations/questions following your numbering:
1. "Bondage or no bondage" are indeed concepts and as such not real. I am not trying to trick you into something...all i want is helping you to SEEing. From your first mail about all the practice you did /are doing you certainly know what SEEing means. Please give me a very simple answer on "where are you looking from",... Is there a seeer and the seen?
2. Great answer...equanimity etc. are not a consequence of "you" doing or not doing something. Looking for peace/quiet/ happiness or chasing after e.g. Spiritual experiences is tiresome and ineffective. Pease let me know your view on that. Does or can Satya make things happen? And if so, please tell me the tricks you use :-)
3/4. Agreed...we are not here to get through Zen koans, nonetheless, it is very important to really non-intellectually directly see that the "delusion" of a separate entity was not there and then.....it started. Please elaborate very simply and shortly when that was and how it is being kept alive. Can you do something about it without referring to all your practices and reading books?
5. Repetitive...are you absolutely sure there is no self? Was there ever one? Surrender is indeed a concept and what is pointed at here is non conceptual awareness. Very ordinary and obvious.....do you agree?
6. Love your answer!
7. This seems to be the big one...."focusing on something else, they dissolve....". This sounds like escapism, which btw is done by 99.9 % of the human race, so you are not special. Again, when that fear comes up, just genuinely invite it in, see where it comes from and what it does to you..even imagine the worst case scenario. What is it really other than a thought? Were are thoughts coming from? What power do thoughts have? Do you own these thoughts?
Courage my friend!
I am looking forward talking to you tomorrow! Its really a pleasure (btw thanks for getting on face book again)
Peace --- Lars
I loved your response and read them several times. Here are some more observations/questions following your numbering:
1. "Bondage or no bondage" are indeed concepts and as such not real. I am not trying to trick you into something...all i want is helping you to SEEing. From your first mail about all the practice you did /are doing you certainly know what SEEing means. Please give me a very simple answer on "where are you looking from",... Is there a seeer and the seen?
2. Great answer...equanimity etc. are not a consequence of "you" doing or not doing something. Looking for peace/quiet/ happiness or chasing after e.g. Spiritual experiences is tiresome and ineffective. Pease let me know your view on that. Does or can Satya make things happen? And if so, please tell me the tricks you use :-)
3/4. Agreed...we are not here to get through Zen koans, nonetheless, it is very important to really non-intellectually directly see that the "delusion" of a separate entity was not there and then.....it started. Please elaborate very simply and shortly when that was and how it is being kept alive. Can you do something about it without referring to all your practices and reading books?
5. Repetitive...are you absolutely sure there is no self? Was there ever one? Surrender is indeed a concept and what is pointed at here is non conceptual awareness. Very ordinary and obvious.....do you agree?
6. Love your answer!
7. This seems to be the big one...."focusing on something else, they dissolve....". This sounds like escapism, which btw is done by 99.9 % of the human race, so you are not special. Again, when that fear comes up, just genuinely invite it in, see where it comes from and what it does to you..even imagine the worst case scenario. What is it really other than a thought? Were are thoughts coming from? What power do thoughts have? Do you own these thoughts?
Courage my friend!
I am looking forward talking to you tomorrow! Its really a pleasure (btw thanks for getting on face book again)
Peace --- Lars
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Lars:
Thanks for your kind words - this is an invaluable process.
Please give me a very simple answer on "where are you looking from",... Is there a seer and the seen?
No seer, nothing seen. Just seeing.
Does or can Satya make things happen? And if so, please tell me the tricks you use :-)
“Satya” cannot make things happen: things happen whether or not a self is conjured up.
It is very important to really non-intellectually directly see that the "delusion" of a separate entity was not there and then.....it started. Please elaborate very simply and shortly when that was and how it is being kept alive. Can you do something about it without referring to all your practices and reading books?
Do you mean when it first started? The delusion started in quite early childhood – certainly by the time I was 3 or 4, since the concept of “me” and “mine” was well established by then: ask my older sister :-). If you mean on a moment to moment basis, it's whenever a thought or feeling about “me”, “I", or “mine” arises, usually in response to some other thought, sight, sensation, etc. (There's a pen... and it's mine!") Keeping the illusion alive is to keep the thought process going, creating a story around it, what I want to do with it, and the whole thing builds and builds momentum. What I can do about it is pay attention, come back to my raw experience and see if there is anyone there, if the thought or feeling belongs to anyone. The answer is always no.
Repetitive...are you absolutely sure there is no self? Was there ever one? Surrender is indeed a concept and what is pointed at here is non conceptual awareness. Very ordinary and obvious.....do you agree?
There is no self, nor was there ever one. I agree, no thoughts or concepts necessary to know this. As immediate and obvious as it can get.
This seems to be the big one...."focusing on something else, they dissolve....". This sounds like escapism, which btw is done by 99.9 % of the human race, so you are not special. Again, when that fear comes up, just genuinely invite it in, see where it comes from and what it does to you..even imagine the worst case scenario. What is it really other than a thought? Where are thoughts coming from? What power do thoughts have? Do you own these thoughts?
Sorry, imprecise language on my part. Believe me - I've done the escapism thing. The “something else” I was referring to is whatever raw experience is available (sitting, seeing, hearing, etc.), letting the thought process go without spending anymore time on it. For instance, while sitting at the jazz concert, letting go of the agitating thought pattern “I want this peaceful feeling to continue”, knowing it's just a thought that will pass whether I look closely at it or not, and return to the raw sense of sitting.
Peace
Thanks for your kind words - this is an invaluable process.
Please give me a very simple answer on "where are you looking from",... Is there a seer and the seen?
No seer, nothing seen. Just seeing.
Does or can Satya make things happen? And if so, please tell me the tricks you use :-)
“Satya” cannot make things happen: things happen whether or not a self is conjured up.
It is very important to really non-intellectually directly see that the "delusion" of a separate entity was not there and then.....it started. Please elaborate very simply and shortly when that was and how it is being kept alive. Can you do something about it without referring to all your practices and reading books?
Do you mean when it first started? The delusion started in quite early childhood – certainly by the time I was 3 or 4, since the concept of “me” and “mine” was well established by then: ask my older sister :-). If you mean on a moment to moment basis, it's whenever a thought or feeling about “me”, “I", or “mine” arises, usually in response to some other thought, sight, sensation, etc. (There's a pen... and it's mine!") Keeping the illusion alive is to keep the thought process going, creating a story around it, what I want to do with it, and the whole thing builds and builds momentum. What I can do about it is pay attention, come back to my raw experience and see if there is anyone there, if the thought or feeling belongs to anyone. The answer is always no.
Repetitive...are you absolutely sure there is no self? Was there ever one? Surrender is indeed a concept and what is pointed at here is non conceptual awareness. Very ordinary and obvious.....do you agree?
There is no self, nor was there ever one. I agree, no thoughts or concepts necessary to know this. As immediate and obvious as it can get.
This seems to be the big one...."focusing on something else, they dissolve....". This sounds like escapism, which btw is done by 99.9 % of the human race, so you are not special. Again, when that fear comes up, just genuinely invite it in, see where it comes from and what it does to you..even imagine the worst case scenario. What is it really other than a thought? Where are thoughts coming from? What power do thoughts have? Do you own these thoughts?
Sorry, imprecise language on my part. Believe me - I've done the escapism thing. The “something else” I was referring to is whatever raw experience is available (sitting, seeing, hearing, etc.), letting the thought process go without spending anymore time on it. For instance, while sitting at the jazz concert, letting go of the agitating thought pattern “I want this peaceful feeling to continue”, knowing it's just a thought that will pass whether I look closely at it or not, and return to the raw sense of sitting.
Peace
Re: Feedback welcome!
PS – maybe I misunderstood the third question and what you were asking, but it was like I had to go on memory to respond to how the delusion “is being kept alive” (in the present tense). For instance, I can look at a pen and recognize how I could jump to "it's my pen", and I can see how the delusion was kept alive like that, but I can't get to "my pen" anymore. Sometimes a strong memory or thought will trigger a "me" story to start up again that I need to look closely at, like the peaceful feeling in the jazz hall or an old axe to grind, but the basic delusion that there is a separate self doesn't recur - I just come back to what I know.
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Satya,
I loved your prompt/direct responses!
Now Liberation Unleashed follows a process, so what i will do is sent our communications to some very senior/matured (spiritual) people, who still may want you to answer some questions, if you don't mind. It is kind of a calibration whether you passed the gateless gate ( we just don't want more illusion like "individual "enlightened " people"; enough of those around).
I will get back to you ASAP!
Thanks and peace my friend <3
Lars
I loved your prompt/direct responses!
Now Liberation Unleashed follows a process, so what i will do is sent our communications to some very senior/matured (spiritual) people, who still may want you to answer some questions, if you don't mind. It is kind of a calibration whether you passed the gateless gate ( we just don't want more illusion like "individual "enlightened " people"; enough of those around).
I will get back to you ASAP!
Thanks and peace my friend <3
Lars
Re: Feedback welcome!
Hi Satya,
Thanks for your private messages, but we should really continue our conversation on the "feedback welcome" thread, so that it is open for the forum and its leaders.
As you will have noticed, this is a serious process to assess if "aspirants" are really directly seeING, IOW if they passed the gateless gate or not. Part of this process will be very familiar to you coming from a long history of Buddhist training.
In any event, please answer the following seemingly repetitive questions, as concise and direct from the heart as possible....no philosophies/ references etc just who you really, really are... Feel free to check with me, if you would need any further guidance...Here we go with the final Confirmation Questions:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
Remember...concise, brutally honest and courageous execution is the best!
Hang in there my friend...i am with you there all the way!
Looking so forward to your answers!
Peace -- Lars
Thanks for your private messages, but we should really continue our conversation on the "feedback welcome" thread, so that it is open for the forum and its leaders.
As you will have noticed, this is a serious process to assess if "aspirants" are really directly seeING, IOW if they passed the gateless gate or not. Part of this process will be very familiar to you coming from a long history of Buddhist training.
In any event, please answer the following seemingly repetitive questions, as concise and direct from the heart as possible....no philosophies/ references etc just who you really, really are... Feel free to check with me, if you would need any further guidance...Here we go with the final Confirmation Questions:
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
Remember...concise, brutally honest and courageous execution is the best!
Hang in there my friend...i am with you there all the way!
Looking so forward to your answers!
Peace -- Lars
Re: Feedback welcome!
Thank you Lars for your patience and encouragement!
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
There is no “me” or “self” in any way, now or ever. It can seem like there is “me” and "everything else," but that's not what's happening.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
It's the illusion that there's a me in here that is seeing things, feeling things, thinking thoughts and generally getting on with "my life". We're conditioned as kids by everyone around us who talk in terms of me and mine, give us a name and “our” room and stuff, so it has to be true, no? We looked at our bodies and eventually consider the whole thing mine, part of me. We didn't know any better. So now every time we see something that “belongs to me”, it reinforces the assumption, and if we feel threatened or see something we really want the sense of self ramps way up. It's how we interpret our entire experience: this is me, this is you, this is my stuff, that's yours. The more we think and talk in that way, the more ingrained it becomes, minute by minute, day by day. The older we get, the less open we are to seeing things any other way: it's like it calcifies.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
It's unfortunate - it isn't necessary. I look back at how it happened to my daughter many years ago: she went from being a happy little toddler who didn't care who she was to a little “me” who said “no” and who owned toys she couldn't do without, and so it started. Why do we do this to ourselves? The truth is right here, all we have to do is look, instead of going on this grand assumption of a self and fighting a constant struggle to maintain it. To see that the self is an illusion is such a relief, and there's no more hole inside that you're trying to fill.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
Imagine you put a pane of glass in front of you with some grime on the back side. You see things through it, but the grime distorts what you see, and also makes the glass act as a mirror: no matter what you are looking at, there is a reflection of you there as well - you can't help but be reminded that it's you doing the looking. Now take the pane of glass away. Everything's still there, but no reflection of you in it. You see everything clearer, just as it is, without the grime. That's the self - an unnecessary filter that interprets experience, and all it does is get in the way. If you look for it, you don't find it, because it's not really there. And as scary as it sounds, seeing this is the best thing you could ever do! Everything will still be there, just like before, there's just no you distorting it all.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
Right before I took off for a few days on my own last summer, I had this major freak-out over all the BS in the spiritual group I am a member of, going so far as to write a manifesto about how right I was on everything, and it pushed me to the edge of a cliff. It had happened once before, shortly after I got married and my daughter came along, where I just couldn't adjust, and it took getting pushed to the point of panic for me to change how I was approaching things. I shared the manifesto with a friend, who simply said "that's the biggest load of self-serving crap I've ever read". After some initial indignation, I realized he was right – it was like a slap on the face, and thanked him for it.
Once on my own I was sitting quietly, and looked for the things in my experience: where were they? This assumption that "thingness" is an inherent quality of reality - what's that all about? There was nothing to it: underneath the words and thoughts, "things" weren't really there: they were concepts. I then asked "OK, so where is the person who believes that they are perceiving anything?" I looked, and there wasn't anyone there - it went from "I am looking for the looker" to just the act of looking, and just stayed there. In all the information I had available to me - all the thoughts and sensations - there wasn't anyone there, just an ability to perceive.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
While in everyday life “I” is a convention that everyone uses to make sense of the world and get things done, sitting here “I” is a temporary collection of information, a thought and maybe a few sensations, that arises and passes away if I say the word “I”, but that's about it.
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
No experiencer, just experience. Experience happens whether or not you conjure up an experiencer.
8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
Experience doesn't belong to the body - experience happens because there is a body, a neurophysical mass that is simply wired that way.
9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
I remember thinking “Man, that's really all there is”. It's so basic, it was right there in front of me all along. Just a bunch of sensations and thoughts that don't have to be interpreted in any particular way. I don't need to collect sensations up to make a self, like constantly making snowballs and throwing them at the world. The world didn't just wink out by letting go.
10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
I felt relieved: it struck me how much energy my “self” needed just to keep it going, how much stuff has to hang together, and it never really hangs together anyway. I noticed how I could just talk to people without referring everything I heard and said to some internal auditor – words just came out and seemed to be the right ones. Various habits lost their appeal: little white lies, fantasizing about who knows what. The stories about what I was experiencing would start up, but it was like they had no anchor to hold to, and they drifted away. A few days later we dropped off our daughter at school for the first time – a very bittersweet time, but I didn't feel like something of mine was missing. Life got easier.
1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? how about self, is there anything that is separate from everything else?
There is no “me” or “self” in any way, now or ever. It can seem like there is “me” and "everything else," but that's not what's happening.
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
It's the illusion that there's a me in here that is seeing things, feeling things, thinking thoughts and generally getting on with "my life". We're conditioned as kids by everyone around us who talk in terms of me and mine, give us a name and “our” room and stuff, so it has to be true, no? We looked at our bodies and eventually consider the whole thing mine, part of me. We didn't know any better. So now every time we see something that “belongs to me”, it reinforces the assumption, and if we feel threatened or see something we really want the sense of self ramps way up. It's how we interpret our entire experience: this is me, this is you, this is my stuff, that's yours. The more we think and talk in that way, the more ingrained it becomes, minute by minute, day by day. The older we get, the less open we are to seeing things any other way: it's like it calcifies.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
It's unfortunate - it isn't necessary. I look back at how it happened to my daughter many years ago: she went from being a happy little toddler who didn't care who she was to a little “me” who said “no” and who owned toys she couldn't do without, and so it started. Why do we do this to ourselves? The truth is right here, all we have to do is look, instead of going on this grand assumption of a self and fighting a constant struggle to maintain it. To see that the self is an illusion is such a relief, and there's no more hole inside that you're trying to fill.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
Imagine you put a pane of glass in front of you with some grime on the back side. You see things through it, but the grime distorts what you see, and also makes the glass act as a mirror: no matter what you are looking at, there is a reflection of you there as well - you can't help but be reminded that it's you doing the looking. Now take the pane of glass away. Everything's still there, but no reflection of you in it. You see everything clearer, just as it is, without the grime. That's the self - an unnecessary filter that interprets experience, and all it does is get in the way. If you look for it, you don't find it, because it's not really there. And as scary as it sounds, seeing this is the best thing you could ever do! Everything will still be there, just like before, there's just no you distorting it all.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
Right before I took off for a few days on my own last summer, I had this major freak-out over all the BS in the spiritual group I am a member of, going so far as to write a manifesto about how right I was on everything, and it pushed me to the edge of a cliff. It had happened once before, shortly after I got married and my daughter came along, where I just couldn't adjust, and it took getting pushed to the point of panic for me to change how I was approaching things. I shared the manifesto with a friend, who simply said "that's the biggest load of self-serving crap I've ever read". After some initial indignation, I realized he was right – it was like a slap on the face, and thanked him for it.
Once on my own I was sitting quietly, and looked for the things in my experience: where were they? This assumption that "thingness" is an inherent quality of reality - what's that all about? There was nothing to it: underneath the words and thoughts, "things" weren't really there: they were concepts. I then asked "OK, so where is the person who believes that they are perceiving anything?" I looked, and there wasn't anyone there - it went from "I am looking for the looker" to just the act of looking, and just stayed there. In all the information I had available to me - all the thoughts and sensations - there wasn't anyone there, just an ability to perceive.
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
While in everyday life “I” is a convention that everyone uses to make sense of the world and get things done, sitting here “I” is a temporary collection of information, a thought and maybe a few sensations, that arises and passes away if I say the word “I”, but that's about it.
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
No experiencer, just experience. Experience happens whether or not you conjure up an experiencer.
8) Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
Experience doesn't belong to the body - experience happens because there is a body, a neurophysical mass that is simply wired that way.
9) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
I remember thinking “Man, that's really all there is”. It's so basic, it was right there in front of me all along. Just a bunch of sensations and thoughts that don't have to be interpreted in any particular way. I don't need to collect sensations up to make a self, like constantly making snowballs and throwing them at the world. The world didn't just wink out by letting go.
10) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
I felt relieved: it struck me how much energy my “self” needed just to keep it going, how much stuff has to hang together, and it never really hangs together anyway. I noticed how I could just talk to people without referring everything I heard and said to some internal auditor – words just came out and seemed to be the right ones. Various habits lost their appeal: little white lies, fantasizing about who knows what. The stories about what I was experiencing would start up, but it was like they had no anchor to hold to, and they drifted away. A few days later we dropped off our daughter at school for the first time – a very bittersweet time, but I didn't feel like something of mine was missing. Life got easier.
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