Keen to REALLY see the truth and would be very grateful for

[Matt]

Good work.
So, is "Don't Know" a thought, or something else?
Is "Reactivity" a thought, or something else?
Is "Unskillful Action" a thought, or something else?
And is "I exist" a thought, or something else?
Finally, watch what's actually happening: what is the duration of a thought?
What is the weight of a thought?
What is the location of a thought?
What is the origin of a thought?

[Nick D]

Thank you so much for this Matt- it's strangely shaking and stirring and that feels very good though quite disturbing!

Things happen- actions, words, and thoughts and there's a "who is this doing all this?" which is a pleasant and agreeable bewilderment.

So the "don't know"- whether it's a thought or whatever, is just another arising and passing phenomena. I can't say for sure it's a thought, it's more like bewilderment/love- love meaning seeing beyond a fixed view of what's what and instead . . . 'acceptance of whatever is as OK simply because it is'.

OK- more cognitive reply here to tehnext questions but I think it hits the mark and does bring a sense of more lightness- 'reactive' is a pejorative word that sees some things as bad and others good without appreciating that they are all innocent- conditioned arising. Similarly 'unskillful action' is simply arising innocently in response to beliefs that aren't true- that's katie's line and it seems to ring true. It seems to be the case anyway that the cause of all the 'unskillfulness' is a desparate attempt, made by no-one, to prove that there's someone there (if only 'he' could be big enough and have enough pleasure etc etc).

'I exist' is a rabbit warren of thoughts, all with the same theme.

Have just got back from a long drive and it's late- so this is a quick reply to the last four questions, - although it doesn't take much time to nocice that they come from no where, exist no where, go no where, and flicker in and out in rapid succession. Until they are actually looked at for what they are though they keep coming back in similar forms.

[Matt]

Cool. I'd keep at it, then. :-)
Best wishes,
M

P.S.: "...they come from no where, exist no where, go no where, and flicker in and out in rapid succession." In and out of what?

[Matt]

And take a look and find out: what's really behind this "fear" that you mention?

[Nick D]

Only just picked up your messages - a day of non stop responsibilities- but thoughts drive this body around and make the world into what it appears to be, but they can't be said to be inside anything- or outside. The world if anything is conjured by them, at least as it is understood to be.
I know that this isn't about looking for changes to happen on the level of phenomena, but this 'personality' is going through massive positive shifts too- there's been lots of turbulence and then lost of emotional release and a sense that 'I' don't recognise 'me' - that is, there it's like a story unfolding (mostly one of power coming back to itself) and it's like it's just happening, 'I' can't claim owndership of it. last night there was intense reactivity and today a sense of power with all that fear gone.
Will keep looking!

[Nick D]

Hi matt,
There's a sense of completion about this- and it may be that the 'penny dropped' a few weeks ago, though that may be delusion- don't know, but something radical has shifted. It feels like now seeing the ramifications- and the process of what appears to be 'me' in operation. There is a bit more that I want to share with you and I feel immense gratitude that the universe can provide a context like this for the truth to be seen- in the shape of messages from 'Matt'. Thank you from the depths of this heart! I will write a bit more but right now there#s a lot of Christmas preparations to engage in!
Deepest appreciation
Nick

[Matt]

Sounds good. If you would like our team to investigate and "confirm" your case (or point out where it seems it's not yet complete), please answer these questions again, from the current view.

Please answer each of the following inquiries, one at a time, with total honesty. Let the answers come from looking / direct experiential evidence (leave aside all learning, assumption, analysis, belief, etc.)

1: Is there, and has there ever been, a you/self in any shape or form?

2: Explain what the illusion of separate self is, when it begins in life, and how it works.

3: How does it feel, in the mind and body, to see this illusion for what it is?

4: How would you describe this to somebody who has never heard about the illusion of self, much less the ability to see through it.

5: What exactly was it that allowed this 'seeing' to be recognized?

[Nick D]

Hi Matt,
Firstly I'm so sorry I've not replied over these last two weeks. What happened was that I messaged you and then drove to family for Christmas. That night this body came down with a fever and the heaviest cough and cold I think it's ever had. What followed was a wierd half-world of Christmas in that state and then some very intense emotional release to do with fear about my mother dying (she's not likely to for a long time but she is very very disabled and on the gradual decline). There was also very intense fear about this body getting M.E. / Chronic Fatigue again, which is something that dominated the 'story of me' for about 15 years.
That all provoked a lot of doubt about how much the self had really been seen through, and I had been planning to write to thank you yet again for your kindness but to say that I didn't think I was ready to see if I "pass the test".

But as all that was happening, I noticed that it was, as with everything else, an ongoing carouselle, or perhaps rollercoaster ride of thoughts and emotions, AND that they passed quicker than expected. There is still a sense of rawness but it seemed bizarre to see them changing like that.

So what's present now is still the same sense that 'I don't know what is going to happen next'- i.e., what 'I' am going to do next. Actions happen but it would be grandiosity to to pretend that there's any real control over what actions and thoughts and emotions happen next. At some point a decision came to send this message for example, now that I'm up and out of bed and getting on with things again. It feels like 'being hoodwinked' to believe the thought that 'I haven't got it yet'.

So I will answer the questions you've laid out and see what your team make of my answers. Won't ahve time now till monday but I'll send it asap.

Very best wishes and once again thank you so much
Nick

[Matt]

Great. I'm happy you're feeling better. I like this: "...like 'being hoodwinked' to believe the thought that 'I haven't got it yet'." Yes, how would life be lived if this thought was not believed? :o)
And I hope I haven't encouraged you to believe there is something (separate) out there that you have to "get".
Happy Newness,
M

[Nick D]

Hi Matt,
Long time since I wrote last. I've been intensely busy setting up a new business, and also probably needed time to let this process unfold in its own time. Perhaps also some fear about really accepting the truth- and also a story of 'who do you think you are to say you've realised you're nobody'!!! (Gosh isn't it funny). But those things are - as everything else, just what they are, emotion and thought.

I like this: "...like 'being hoodwinked' to believe the thought that 'I haven't got it yet'." Yes, how would life be lived if this thought was not believed? :o)

How would life be lived . . . as if a mill stone had been dropped. And I guess this is just what it keeps coming down to: the belief that tehre is something to have and if 'I' don't have it then someone out there somewhere must have it to give it to me!!! What a waste of time!

Ok here are my answers to the questions you gave. Would be interested in feedback and happy for any delusion to be rooted out. I've answered question two at length. Hope that's ok.

1: Is there, and has there ever been, a you/self in any shape or form?
Not as anything other than a cluster of thoughts and habitual responses and emotions that tend to arise together.

2: Explain what the illusion of separate self is, when it begins in life, and how it works.

OK . . .

This is what is:
There is sense impression. There are thoughts. There are emotions.

There are thoughts and emotions that arise in dependence on sense impressions.

There are thoughts which compare unpleasant sense impressions with an image or idea of ‘utopian harmony’.

There is a dissonance between this fantasy of utopian harmony (solid enduring pleasurable experience) and actual direct experience (which is unstable, changing and in some degree unpleasant).

The thought arises (repeatedly ‘second by second’) that this dissonance needs to be removed - which would require CONTROL over life i.e., that control over experience must be attained so that harmony can be restored/established. Equally the thought arises that the absence of harmony/utopia is due to a failure to effectively control experience, and that there must be an ‘I’ that is responsible for this failure.

In a child growing up, this takes the form of the belief that there is an ‘I’ which is deficient in some way and that needs to be perfected in order for harmony to be re-established. To add insult to injury, actions which are the result of the thought that self improvement is needed, are often met with praise, which in itself is pleasant but which nevertheless reinforces the delusion that there is ‘someone’ heading towards perfection.

No one is to blame- there is no one to be at fault.

Another way of putting this is to say that the fiction is that there is a broken self that needs fixing.

The belief that there is a broken self that needs fixing is insidious and infects ‘spiritual practice’ very easily.

The great irony is that harmony and completeness are available always when this is met as it is without comparison to something better. Pain may be excruciatingly painful but metaphorically speaking it is all still ‘God’ (however painful). Reaction to pain is also ‘God’. And harmony and completeness is also available when comparison happens, and is itself seen just for what it is- just innocent conditions unfolding (‘God’).

This experience here now. . . as it is, is pure innocence. For it to be recognised as pure innocence is the return to wholeness. It requires no ‘self improvement’ no bettering of oneself.

What is required therefore is for the myth of ‘completeness through improvement’ to be seen as a myth. Then a ‘union’ which was there all along is revealed – and poetically speaking there is a feeling of ‘coming home to oneself’ – being ‘undivided’. The internal Berlin wall falls.

The trap with ‘spiritual practice’ (and life in general) is this: life inherently involves great intensity of experience – often extremely unpleasant. And the belief that self-improvement is required, is insidious, far reaching, and ‘tricksy’!. It is very, very easy for the thought "just more effort is required in order to make things better" to be reinforced.

3: How does it feel, in the mind and body, to see this illusion for what it is?

Unnerving. Resistance and fear arises– because the old story that “there is a self that just needs to be improved enough for utopia to berestored” is very addictive, though intensely frustrating and stressful (because it can’t work).

It’s a bit like working really hard on building a house and then someone pointing out that it’s been built on quicksand. And then thinking “but no I’ve put so much work into this, and if I can only just get it finished all will be OK”.

On another level to see this is a profound relief, because the story of a broken me that needs fixing somehow has always been known to be an impossible nightmare that is very neurotic and unreal- like the feeling a kid might have when trying not to ever have ‘bad thoughts’. They know deep down its impossible.

It’s also comical because the old habit it keeps coming back again and again - it’s here too: if I can only explain this well enough then someone will affirm that ‘I’ve got it’ and harmony will be restored! It’s funny when it’s seen.

In a way it’s also a bit like realizing that there is no boundary between a ‘you’ and the world – like you’re made of glass and that you’ve always been made of glass, with no real inside or outside- just open space. And then the heart is open both to the innocence of what’s been ‘inside’ (emotions and thoughts) and also to what’s ‘other’. But the furrowed brow (identity view) has insisted prior to this that the inside and outside are separate.

4: How would you describe this to somebody who has never heard about the illusion of self, much less the ability to see through it.

Have a look and see if there are any new thoughts. Look closely and see whether there are any thoughts that you can truly say are just ‘yours’. Particularly look for any thought that says that you or your life is broken and needs fixing. Do these thoughts feel familiar/habitual?
Stop and try to make a decision to think about something. Did a ‘you’ really chose the topic? Or did it just pop into your head? Do it again several times. Does a ‘you’ have any control over what goes through your mind?

The seeing that is being pointed to is the seeing that everything taken to be a ‘me’ is just happening: intelligently but nevertheless automatically. Onto this an illusion is added that there is a ‘me’. This would be fine but it is always the story of a ‘me’ that is incomplete and needs fixing.


5: What exactly was it that allowed this 'seeing' to be recognized?
Can’t put that into words- lots of pointers over many years and the dialogue with Matt last year. Perhaps particularly the pointer that all of the layers of reaction (which are the ‘evidence’ for a broken self) are still just ‘not-self’.

[Matt]

Thanks so much for coming back here, Nick! I like your post very much. I've shared it with other "guides" for discussion.

Best,
M

[Matt]

Our group of peers confirmed your case without question; it's clear that you've seen what we see. Of course there's no limit to the potential deepening and developing of this insight, and there are countless ways of deepening and pervading.

You're warmly invited to join any of our "aftercare" Facebook groups, if you're interested in discussing or venting or asking questions of others who have gone through this pointing process. One great way to get deeper is to try your hand at guiding others on this forum, and there's a Facebook group where we mentor each other in that, as well. The link that lists of all of those groups, and gives instructions on how to join them, is below. You might be interested in the FB group called Dealing with the Residue, which uses the Work of BK to see through the stories that can come up after "seeing".
http://liberationunleashed.com/nation/v ... ?f=6&t=696

Thanks again for your great sincerity and humble clarity.
Welcome!
Matt