Any pointers ready to talk?

[dreamer]

Hi Ruth

Yes, thank you I had a nice time - hope you did too.

There is no controller, no chooser, no thinker

What about actions? How do they happen? Are they connected to thoughts? Can you find any intentions? If yes, how does intention work? If no, what do is experienced?

Happy inquiry :)
Vivi

[RuthRudd]

Hi Vividly

I'm still here. Hope all's well with you.
R

[dreamer]

Good - looking forward to your answers to my last questions
:) Vivi

[RuthRudd]

Hi again

the second page of posts confused me. I'm being thwarted by technology. And sorry, my iPad extended your name to 'Vividly'!

You're taking a big eraser to my habitual way of thinking. If there is no controller, no thinker, then there's no actor or intender is there? Thought arises, action arises. There is thought and there is action but there is actually no 'doer' in that experience.

I'm vanishing.

: o

[dreamer]

IF?


I actually loved Vividly

[RuthRudd]

I was showing the line of reasoning. There is no controller, no thinker, AND there's no actor or intender. They're all the same kind of posited concepts. Stuff happens, thoughts, activity ... I can't say how or why any of it happens. There is no 'experience' of me! I'm only inferred. There is stuff, therefore ... nothing! Sorry, Descartes.

[dreamer]

Good!
Just to be totally clear!

Do you feel anything is missing in seeing that 'I' is a thought?
Do you feel ready to answer the 'final' questions?

Warm regards Vivi

[RuthRudd]

There is nothing missing. All the usual stuff is still there. What need is there for there to be a 'me' as a place for it to be happening in? I 'imagine' or 'think' I control stuff, but that's not how it happens when I really look. Dropping the perspective of an 'I' – nothing in the experience changes. So the 'I' was something that was being put there.

Can't imagine what the final questions are! Try me.

[dreamer]

Good!

Here they come! You can answer one or two at a time or all of them at once. Take your time and answer carefully.

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
8 ) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
10) What are others? How do you experience others now.

Knock your non-existing self out :)

[RuthRudd]

OK. Questions in. As you suggest, I'll take my time.
Thanks
R
x

[RuthRudd]

Hi Vivi

Happy experiencer here!

Here are my answers

1) Is there a 'me', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?
No. No!

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.
When attention turns inward to reflect on experience itself – when we seek to re-experience experience, looking for explanations or understanding, when we question it (as opposed to just allowing it to be).

3) How does it feel to see this? describe in detail.
There is a release of anxiety. Deep seeing that there is need to put effort in to check over or police experience; acceptance of experience as it is. Something loosens, settles.

4) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.
Not sure if I could describe it – I’d ask them if they’d never seen a mirror how they would think of their own eyes. Which comes first, eyes or seeing? Go back to seeing itself. (I’m reminded of the Buddha’s words: in the seen just the seen, in the heard, just the heard, … etc.)

5) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?
It was gradual. I think I only let go of ‘I’ in bits. Your questions gradually chipped away all the ground on which the ‘I’ was standing until there was nothing for it to stand on.

6) When you say "I", what are you referring to?
The sum total of what’s in experience.

7) Is there an experiencer experiencing, or is there only experience?
Only experience.
Actually look. Does experience belong to the body, or does the body belong to experience?
Body belongs to experience. (See my response to Q4, re. eyes)

8) What did you experience at the moment you awoke?
I saw, finally, the habitual and defiant clinging to ‘I’ alongside seeing there is no need to do it. It adds nothing helpful, necessary or useful to experience.

9) Describe your experience in the hours and days following awakening.
When I notice my thinking is slipping strongly or unhelpfully into ‘I’, ‘me’, ‘mine’ I now stop and go back to actual experience. (I've been being told it would be useful to do this for years. I now actually do it! Previously I tried to do it while holding onto 'I' at the same time – there is a difference.)

10) What are others? How do you experience others now.
Others are as unreal as ‘I’ was. I have a sense of their ‘self’ delusion being played out.

Knock your non-existing self out :)

I’ve been wanting to let go of ‘self’ in this experiential way for some time. Your ‘direct pointing’ method is brilliant.
'No, go back and look again – what do you really see … ?’ Until it cannot be denied.
Perfect simplicity.

Thank you.
: )

[dreamer]

Thank you very much Ruth. Enjoyed reading your answers

Your answer to question no 3 could use a little clarification:

There is a release of anxiety. Deep seeing that there is need to put effort in to check over or police experience; acceptance of experience as it is. Something loosens, settles.

Something seems missing here?

I will bring your answer to other guides to look into them closely, and you will hear from me ASAP

warm regards vivi

[RuthRudd]

Ok I'll go back to that one. it relates to Q2 doesn't it. I'll look more closely!
R

[dreamer]

Hi Ruth

Please look at question no 2 again and answer with more details.
Thank you

Vivi :)

[RuthRudd]

You're right. I had left out the word 'NO' in my answer to Q3. At the moment I can't see how to re-thread it though.
I'll go over Q2 and 3 again. Sorry.