Need a push through the pinhole

[Artsys]

So, I found this place and feel the need to finish me off. Would someone walk with me.

~A

[cosmiK]

Hey,

thanks for the PM - i'd be happy to pair up with you.

There are a few ground rules - the usual - please respond to confirm:

1. You agree to post at least every day.
2. I will post questions, which prompt your investigation and answers.
3. When you answer/report, please do so with 110% honestly,
4. and when you do answer, please answer from direct experience (felt senses and observed thoughts). Long winded analytical and philosophical answers are not needed and may even hinder progress.
5. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies and such for the remainder of this journey. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily and essential meditation practice, it is fine to continue that.
6. Please learn to use the quote function, instructions are located in the link below this line:
viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

-------
I think you've already ready this - but just confirm for me that dE / present moment experience can be broken down in to the 3 aspects

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ce-de.html

------

then briefly & succinctly outline your expectations for seeing no-self (what we call Liberation here)

-----

then tell me what "I" / "me" refers to in direct experience. in other words, describe this separate self that you believe you are here to Awaken from. Be brief and direct, and let it reflect the investigation of the now with as little theory as possible.


let's do this,
lots of Love.

[Artsys]

CosmiK,

I agree to post daily as honestly possible as I can, and to stay with focused intent while responding from immediate sense & thought perception as they come up.

think you've already ready this - but just confirm for me that dE / present moment experience can be broken down in to the 3 aspects.

Confirmed. I agree and sometimes can just live from that perspective, though they're fleeting glimpses and a conclusive seeing is needed. I'm not here by mistake. I can feel a subtle energy in me giving a sense of *man you've come to the right spot*.

then briefly & succinctly outline your expectations for seeing no-self (what we call Liberation here)

Basically, to get of the hamster wheel of identification with something that just continually feeds off emotional reactions, mental stimulation and regret/ambitions for something either past or in the future. I'm not looking to become a blissed out yogi, or any such neo-awakened avaidist, but I am looking to see and live from a place of 'no-self'. I've read all I care to read on this subject and am now looking to get to the bottom of this gollum character that I've identified with my entire life. Less Art. More This.

then tell me what "I" / "me" refers to in direct experience. in other words, describe this separate self that you believe you are here to Awaken from. Be brief and direct, and let it reflect the investigation of the now with as little theory as possible.

Ok...now to the real work.

A collection of memories, beliefs and ideas that sustain an image I have of myself. The motivator of all things related to self-centeredness, and seeking. A feeling of unease unless some type of stimulus; internal or external is always at play to keep 'me' going. Most importantly, an emotional fear wall that definitely protects the fortress of the idea of 'me'. There always seems to be this focal point of some type of 'umpire' that correlates all the images, or better yet thoughts, feelings, sensory input, etc... to come to a conclusion through relation to something else so I can conclude that I'm the one feeling or thinking this or that. It's actually harder to explain than I thought. Hopefully I've given you enough from what came up to get going.

Thx for the time.

~Art

[cosmiK]

Hey :)

Basically, to get of the hamster wheel of identification with something that just continually feeds off emotional reactions, mental stimulation and regret/ambitions for something either past or in the future. I'm not looking to become a blissed out yogi, or any such neo-awakened avaidist, but I am looking to see and live from a place of 'no-self'. I've read all I care to read on this subject and am now looking to get to the bottom of this gollum character that I've identified with my entire life. Less Art. More This.

Very fair expectations, but put any and all expectations aside. Let them fall away. They are simply attachments to an imagined future / self and they won't serve you. Simple as that. Put 110% attention on direct experience and investigating this supposed self, and all the angles we tackle.

A collection of memories, beliefs and ideas that sustain an image I have of myself.

Re-read this sentence. It epitomizes the self-referencing nature of thought. the illusion is based on a self-referencing thought loop that constantly thrones itself around a supposed "I" but as you may have glimpsed already... it points to nothing substantial... some sensations, and other thoughts. of course thoughts can weave almost anything... like the first person... "YOU"!

Pay attention to direct experience. Experiencing as seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling and thought arise in/as consciousness. Also notice how there are no separate 6 streams, but we separate them to skilfully break down Experience to shatter any thought-stories/assumptions that leads to illusory bindings, namely the core binding, the self... or "YOU"!

These words are NOT for the first person character, "you", but are directed towards that which is aware of this sentence. we can call this consciousness: the impersonal all-inclusive Life in/of which the entire dance of existence plays itself out.

Most importantly, an emotional fear wall that definitely protects the fortress of the idea of 'me'.

LOOK Right at Fear, Let it be, invite it in, feel it FULLY.

Gently as, What is it trying to protect? is there actually something there that needs to be protected?

Let's start with a few simple angles. Remember, dE (direct experience) is the key here. Speculate as little as possible and keep the investigation as raw as possible.

Is there an "I" or self that experiences experience?
CHECK and see what comes up.

Let's also investigate doership:
http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... rship.html

Please do all 3 exercises and write your results for each one.

Lots of Love.

[Artsys]

LOOK Right at Fear, Let it be, invite it in, feel it FULLY.

Gently as, What is it trying to protect? is there actually something there that needs to be protected?

Immediate thought is that Fear is attempting to protect itself from annihilation. A feeling also comes up that it would be the death of 'me' if the Fear wasn't there to guard the door.

Is there an "I" or self that experiences experience?

So, intermittently there appears to be an "I", but it's also a preceded by the thought, I hear this music, there is also the experience of just hearing of music. A vacillation is happening.

Exercise 1.

Was walking in the woods, seeing trees, felt the wind, heard the wind, sensed legs moving, and then there was thoughts....I am walking. The direct experience is initial with an overlay of some 'me' filter that claims the experience.

Exercise 2.

Standing there moving the left arm, could feel it moving, saw the shadow of my arm going up and down, felt the sensation. Switched to the right, and very similar. There were some distractions also being experienced while I was outside on some wooded trails. Again, the immediacy of the happening was perceived, however the mind generated thought that "I am" moving my arms quickly over-shadowed the simple actioning.

Exercise 3.

Listening to music with headphones on, realized....holyshit, there are only thoughts of an "I" but the hearing didn't require an I to listen, enjoy and experience the sounds. Sorta hit an a-ha moment during this third exercise.

Another thing recognized through internal seeing/feeling was that the "I" isn't a requirement for living. Life is happening....Then poof. Gone was that thought, to be followed by others.

~A

[cosmiK]

Hi!

Immediate thought is that Fear is attempting to protect itself from annihilation. A feeling also comes up that it would be the death of 'me' if the Fear wasn't there to guard the door.

"me" has never existed apart from thought. self-referencing thoughts. that's it.

the "me" or person has never been aware of anything, has never done anything, and can never be annihilated. there is just a pervasive illusion that there is a "me" at the center of Life, but the "me" is simply another appearance in/as consciousness, just like trees, flowers, animals, planets, computers and such are. We can also say that the "me" is even less substantial than these other apparent appearances.

Look at this "me" that could ever be annihilated. Can you find a "me" apart from thoughts?

So, intermittently there appears to be an "I", but it's also a preceded by the thought, I hear this music, there is also the experience of just hearing of music. A vacillation is happening.

well look at whatever appears that you label as "I". If "I" appears/is experienced, how can it be the experiencer?

Keep looking... is there an experiencer that experiences Experience? Stare it down.

thoughts claim there is an "I", and this label points habitually to "the body", images and thoughts of this apparent person, and other ideas of being a human being in a world......... but really check in dE to see if this is true.

look to see how thought ties together other thoughts and points selectively and habitually to certain sensations and "parts" of Experience to create this "self"... this "person". Get to know how "you" are created moment to moment. Attention FULLY on dE.

regardless of thoughts claiming that the apparent person, apparent body is the "self" or "I", is there any real reason to claim that as "self" and everything else as "not self". Why does the apparent first person character get claimed as self and not trees, the sun, clouds? Explain this sense of ownership over the "self".

just hearing of music

is there a hearing of music, or just music?

look at this knower/knowing/known paradigm...

can you find a separate knower?
can you find a separate knowing?
can you find a separate known?

thought would claim so, but check dE :)

Was walking in the woods, seeing trees, felt the wind, heard the wind, sensed legs moving, and then there was thoughts....I am walking. The direct experience is initial with an overlay of some 'me' filter that claims the experience.

Yes, as you see.. the "I" appears WITH thought.
thoughts are constantly claiming experience and have stitched together this thought-throne... at the center is this "I".
Look for this phantom claimant... is it there apart from thought?

Standing there moving the left arm, could feel it moving, saw the shadow of my arm going up and down, felt the sensation. Switched to the right, and very similar. There were some distractions also being experienced while I was outside on some wooded trails. Again, the immediacy of the happening was perceived, however the mind generated thought that "I am" moving my arms quickly over-shadowed the simple actioning.

Right... all sorts of happenings including the thought "i am moving" was happening effortlessly. Check again to see if there was an actual mover, an actual experiencer, an actual perceiver, an actual thinker?

Listening to music with headphones on, realized....holyshit, there are only thoughts of an "I" but the hearing didn't require an I to listen, enjoy and experience the sounds. Sorta hit an a-ha moment during this third exercise.

Yes! "I" is a THOUGHT... and thoughts cannot listen, enjoy or experience... thoughts can only create a fictitious separate "I" that listens, enjoys and experiences... but ONLY in thought! Do you see the KEY difference there?

Another thing recognized through internal seeing/feeling was that the "I" isn't a requirement for living. Life is happening....Then poof. Gone was that thought, to be followed by others.

Yes... "I" is not required for living, but "I" is just another thought arising in/as Life / consciousness. Just another appearance just like anything else. It is NOT self.

Let's look at this "internal". It may just be language, but it's another great thing to check.

is there an "internal" and an "external"? a "within" and "without"?
where is this dividing line/point?
describe it?
does it exist?

let's also look at the "body".
describe from direct experience what the "body" is.

does the body experience experience?
or
is the body just a habitual thought-label given to apparent parts of experience?

look forward to continuing this investigation!

with Love.

[Artsys]

Can you find a "me" apart from thoughts?

No. Thoughts conjure up a 'me'.

Keep looking... is there an experiencer that experiences Experience? Stare it down.

Looking at this. I can't find one.

Why does the apparent first person character get claimed as self and not trees, the sun, clouds? Explain this sense of ownership over the "self".

Because it seems that the thoughts, feelings and such are referenced locally and personally versus just as they are (stand alone feelings and thoughts, sensations).

Well, the ownership is due to investment in expressing and knowing myself as these thoughts and feelings. Sorta like the idea that I am the 'self' was given to me, and I bought into it for all these years without questioning it.

is there a hearing of music, or just music?

look at this knower/knowing/known paradigm...

can you find a separate knower? No, not without thinking about it.
can you find a separate knowing? No, only an appearance of what comes up.
can you find a separate known? Only from memory. All else is unknown.

thought would claim so, but check dE :)

in direct experience there is just sound, even music is labeled and categorized.

Look for this phantom claimant... is it there apart from thought?

Not at all, thought in dE conjurs up a self, then another thought believes it, then the next one fabricates a story of selfhood. feeling like I impersonate and filter LIFE, and claim it as 'my' life.

Right... all sorts of happenings including the thought "i am moving" was happening effortlessly. Check again to see if there was an actual mover, an actual experiencer, an actual perceiver, an actual thinker?

A thought arises and says there is. Couldn't see an experiencer. Just thoughts. Am I buying these thoughts as 'me'? fuck sake.

Yes! "I" is a THOUGHT... and thoughts cannot listen, enjoy or experience... thoughts can only create a fictitious separate "I" that listens, enjoys and experiences... but ONLY in thought! Do you see the KEY difference there?

Yes. Huge difference. Why should I believe I'm a "thought self" anymore...!!!!

is there an "internal" and an "external"? a "within" and "without"? There are NO boundaries of inner/outer.
where is this dividing line/point? In the mind, but not in direct experience
describe it?
does it exist? Not in the least

let's also look at the "body".
describe from direct experience what the "body" is. A collection of feeling sensations and thoughts that reside in experience.

does the body experience experience? No, just comes up and goes away in experience when thought about or focused on when feeling it.
or
is the body just a habitual thought-label given to apparent parts of experience? Yes, it sure is. there's also a belief thought that claims that it's 'my' body.

So, this is becoming clear that there isn't a 'me' per se, but only an idea of me as thoughts related to the experience. Why does consciousness appear in direct experience as me, and believe it so fervently, and then determine to unsee/unlearn this for the purpose of flowing effortlessly as Life?

Was reading some guided sessions in the Gatecrashers .pdf book and had the complete felt sense that 'I' doesn't nor ever did, or ever will exist. That brought up a very strong energetic flow of gratitude and huge smile at the subtle awareness of it. I was floored at how perfect is all is, without 'me', even if there are thoughts of me still hanging there claiming something or not. What a huge rush of something, it's been with me for a full day, could barely sleep because it was so clearly known there is no 'doer' here and that all there is 'as me' is THIS....simple.

Thanks so much for this site, you and those that guide.

~Art

[cosmiK]

Hi !

Very clear answers... BUT... Let us keep moving forward and clearing up any cobwebs of thought and any self-based-logic-networks that keep this illusion alive. Let's burn it shall we?

Looking at this. I can't find one.

Good. Is there anyone or anything Looking to see that there is anyone looking?? :)
Is there a seer apart from the seen?
Check this OVER and OVER again.

Because it seems that the thoughts, feelings and such are referenced locally and personally versus just as they are (stand alone feelings and thoughts, sensations).

Yes, and look at "locally" and "personally". Do you see the "I"ndividuality that hides in these assumptions? And do you see that they ONLY exist in thought?

Pay attention to ALL that arises and ask yourself... is ANY of it personal? If so... where is the claimant and what is the reason why it is claimed?

Well, the ownership is due to investment in expressing and knowing myself as these thoughts and feelings. Sorta like the idea that I am the 'self' was given to me, and I bought into it for all these years without questioning it.

Yes, and now ruthlessly investigate the validity of this investment, and look directly at the reality of this investment. Ask yourself again and again how this illusion is created. How is it created moment to moment and what aspect of direct experience / sense streams come together to create this illusion. Only direct SEEing can lead to Awakening and lead to unbinding.

in direct experience there is just sound, even music is labeled and categorized.

Yes, I like the way you put this - sticking as purely to the basic elements of Experiencing.

Not at all, thought in dE conjurs up a self, then another thought believes it, then the next one fabricates a story of selfhood. feeling like I impersonate and filter LIFE, and claim it as 'my' life.

It can be said that thought-stories are a filter for Life and in a sense they are, but the appearance of thought-stories themselves are also part of Life. just another part of the innocent dance. always impersonal, and never arising to or being experienced by a person, or a separate self. Regardless of whatever happens, even a barrage of thoughts of self and affective emotion... simply recognize the obviousness that is always staring you in the face: The absence of self. The Presence of THIS-that-Is.

A thought arises and says there is. Couldn't see an experiencer. Just thoughts. Am I buying these thoughts as 'me'? fuck sake.

Yes, thoughts like that continue to arise but after seeing through the "I" they have absolutely nowhere to stick to.
There is no "I" that buys thoughts, just thoughts that say there is an "I" that buys thoughts :D again... a subtle but KEY recognition. Check that again and notice that difference.

Yes. Huge difference. Why should I believe I'm a "thought self" anymore...!!!!

:)

Look for this believer. Can you find it?

Let's look closer at thoughts. (i don't believe we covered this, so here goes).

are you the thinker of thoughts?
can you think and choose a thought?
if i say think of a blue frog now... did YOU think it?

http://this-is-cosmik.blogspot.ca/2012/ ... ughts.html
^--- check the above for a more detailed explanation of this.

Why does consciousness appear in direct experience as me, and believe it so fervently, and then determine to unsee/unlearn this for the purpose of flowing effortlessly as Life?

consciousness doesn't appear as you, "you" appear in/as a "part" of consciousness.

these thoughts questions require thought answers. who knows really?

we could just say that Oneness could not be experienced without duality.

stay focused :)

also... is Life ever NOT flowing effortlessly? CHECK ;)

I was floored at how perfect is all is, without 'me', even if there are thoughts of me still hanging there claiming something or not.

Yes... careful with even being attached to that experience. no matter what happens, let's keep checking... is there EVER a self? does the first person character ever become a real separate aware being?

What a huge rush of something, it's been with me for a full day, could barely sleep because it was so clearly known there is no 'doer' here and that all there is 'as me' is THIS....simple.

Thanks so much for this site, you and those that guide.

It is a pleasure working with you/me :)

Let's keep going until there are no more doubts. Respond and we'll continue. So much fun right?

lots of Love.

[Artsys]

Hey CosmiK....

Let's burn it. All.

Is there anyone or anything Looking to see that there is anyone looking?? :) Just a thought to look. There is an idea or appearance within direct experience that I'm looking to see if anyone is looking
Is there a seer apart from the seen?They are one and the same
Check this OVER and OVER again.[b}okay[/b]

Do you see the "I"ndividuality that hides in these assumptions? And do you see that they ONLY exist in thought?

Yes. They exist in thought, and are owned by another thought that says...'these are my thoughts'.

Pay attention to ALL that arises and ask yourself... is ANY of it personal? If so... where is the claimant and what is the reason why it is claimed?

Will stay with this one for a while.

simply recognize the obviousness that is always staring you in the face: The absence of self. The Presence of THIS-that-Is.

Yes, this is along the lines of continually investigating to deeply put to rest this idea/thought of a self once and for all.

There is no "I" that buys thoughts, just thoughts that say there is an "I" that buys thoughts :D again... a subtle but KEY recognition. Check that again and notice that difference.

Brutal Very clear there.

Look for this believer. Can you find it?

It's fading fast. Sorta comes and goes. Currently I have the flu so it's rougher going with personalized ideas that 'I" am sick.

are you the thinker of thoughts? No, because I don't know what my thoughts will ever be or which one's I'll act upon.
can you think and choose a thought?No, but it would be nice to have that ability.
if i say think of a blue frog now... did YOU think it?No, initially there was a contrary thought to 'try not to think about a Blue Frog.

is Life ever NOT flowing effortlessly?

No, only thought tries to slice and dice Life to make sense of it.

is there EVER a self? I can't find one, unless thoughts come up to produce it.
does the first person character ever become a real separate aware being?Ah, great question and one I've been thinking about lately. All there is is consciousness. The first person character is a mirage, believed only when thoughts arise and claimed by other thoughts to say....I am it.

So much fun right?

Yeah.....Unlike any fun ever.

I agree on the keeping it going until every last doubt and vestige of belief in a separate self has been seen through and evaporated. You asked for 110% honesty, and I want to give that to both of us. I'm still sensing something hanging on, however precarious that is...I'm willing to stay focused until the DROP has occurred. I get this impression that you'll know when it's happened the same time I do.

Thanks,

~Art

[cosmiK]

Hey!

Just a thought to look. There is an idea or appearance within direct experience that I'm looking to see if anyone is looking

Yes... the apparent nobody trying to see through a non-existent self is all just part of the story.

Yes. They exist in thought, and are owned by another thought that says...'these are my thoughts'.

Ownership is another thought-creation, and as such exist only in thought.

Pay attention to ALL that arises and ask yourself... is ANY of it personal? If so... where is the claimant and what is the reason why it is claimed?

Will stay with this one for a while.

Try this one. Look at the hands. Are they more "yours" than the floor, the sky, clouds, etc etc. Really look at ownership here, especially with those things associated with the self, like ideas, and the 'body'. How does ownership come in to play? What makes one thing more 'yours' than something else?

Look for this believer. Can you find it?

It's fading fast. Sorta comes and goes. Currently I have the flu so it's rougher going with personalized ideas that 'I" am sick.

Explain from direct experience what it is that fades, comes and goes.

Isn't the "believer" just another belief? just another thought?

are you the thinker of thoughts? No, because I don't know what my thoughts will ever be or which one's I'll act upon.

are they your thoughts?
are thoughts 'internal' and more 'personal' than say a tree? a flower?

I agree on the keeping it going until every last doubt and vestige of belief in a separate self has been seen through and evaporated. You asked for 110% honesty, and I want to give that to both of us.

Definitely. There is no rush here. Clarity is the most important thing. Let us 'keep going' until it is clear. There is usually a noticeable SHIFT... an undeniable sense that there isn't a separate self. The intensity and effect of this shift varies, but the commonality is the recognition of the illusory nature of being a separate self.

including these questions that I asked you,
please reflect for me:

What is the illusion of the separate self?

How does it come in to play moment to moment? how is this illusion recreated moment to moment?

How would it come in to play for a baby/child?

Why is the illusion so pervasive as a play in consciousness? as in.. why is it so sticky?

--

and I am located in Ontario, Canada - EST time zone.

with Love.

[Artsys]

. Try this one. Look at the hands. Are they more "yours" than the floor, the sky, clouds, etc etc. Really look at ownership here, especially with those things associated with the self, like ideas, and the 'body'. How does ownership come in to play? What makes one thing more 'yours' than something else?

No ownership. Just seeing like any other object. There is a body, but its not referring to anything. Just is. The only way something could be "mine" is if there was a me to possess it. The idea of a me that would own something is missing now. Just things in appearance belonging to no one.

. Explain from direct experience what it is that fades, comes and goes.

Isn't the "believer" just another belief? just another thought?

The I thought comes and goes. Usually attached to something sensed or thought, but the belief or idea of me as the 'I' structure is gone. Yes the believer is a thought as is a belief with more investment by the I. All thoughts, not real.

. Are they your thoughts? no, just random
are thoughts 'internal' and more 'personal' than say a tree? a flower?

Not any longer. They are extremely similar when directly looking without the I filter.

. What is the illusion of the separate self?

a belief that I or a person is the owner of their life and that life is filtered through them.

.

How does it come in to play moment to moment? how is this illusion recreated moment to moment? by not seeing the truth of reality and the falseness of the self. By believing in an erroneous self and filtering all experience as it flows effortlessly and then labeling each experience as 'its" own.

How would it come in to play for a baby/child? just pure seamless life flowing and unfolding perfectly without any attachment or labeling.

Why is the illusion so pervasive as a play in consciousness? as in.. why is it so sticky? it's rarely looked at directly and seen to be fictitious. Sticky, due to an unconscious belief that its what a person is, and the investment into each thought/story only perpetuates a false self referencing loop of 'i'dentity.

Flowing,

Art

[cosmiK]

Hey!

Very clear :)

What about "choice". Let's look at that.
Take 2 objects. can you choose between the two of them?
explain the process and your investigation in to choice.

Comment on this statement with reference to direct experience:
"choice is just as automatic as everything else"

Let's visit doership again. Do you have any control over the first person character?
If so, where is this controller, and how would that work. Describe as best as you can.

with Love.

[Artsys]

What about "choice". Let's look at that.
Take 2 objects. can you choose between the two of them? Lets go with Coffee or Tea as an example.

There wouldn't be an active chooser per se, but s choice would be made based on conditioning, preference, desire, environment and genetic disposition. In the instance of 'me' choosing between Coffee or Tea, coffee is usually preferred 90% of the time. This apparent choice isn't consciously taken nor is it a manageable decision. It happens, and then the self would claim they have chosen X over Y.

explain the process and your investigation in to choice.

Comment on this statement with reference to direct experience:
"choice is just as automatic as everything else"

absolutely. There isn't a chooser as equally obvious that there isn't a self to choose. "Life force" moves as it does without discriminating with regard to preference.

Let's visit doership again. Do you have any control over the first person character? no, because there isn't one.
If so, where is this controller, and how would that work. Describe as best as you can.

[cosmiK]

:)

okay...

what about what is looking? experiencing? is there a seer apart from the seen? does this seer have a location? is it "I" / self?

if there is no self, then what is left? what is alive? describe as best from direct experience.

in experiencing, in this moment, in this... is there any separation? what is separation? how could separation be possible?

with Love.

answer and reflect on this: is there anything missing in this moment?

[Artsys]

what about what is looking? experiencing? is there a seer apart from the seen? does this seer have a location? is it "I" / self? The seer, seeing, seen has merged. There is a beingness experience that just is. Location isn't specific as it's everywhere, and in a sense nowhere to be found. It's selfless consciousness.

if there is no self, then what is left? what is alive? describe as best from direct experience. Clarity and crispness. An expansive openness which allows as well as initiates all things from nowhwere inparticular. Everything is ALIVE...so Alive....

in experiencing, in this moment, in this... is there any separation? what is separation? how could separation be possible? Smiling ... no separation, no togetherness either...just this..THIS (can't name it, no need to) There isn't anything separate....never, ever was. It's possible for nothing to appear separate, but there is no one to know it.

answer and reflect on this: is there anything missing in this moment?

Me.