Guidance requested.

[Chris]

Man ill tell ya, im sitting here watching my hand move from a to b and it truly does feel like I am engaging the shoulder muscle that will lift my arm, and then through volition I rotate it 1 foot to the left.

I think i am missing something, and it probably stems from the very strong belief that I am the body..

What are the commands that you give to the muscles in your shoulder to move? How do you know precisely how much to expand and contract the muscles to "rotate it 1 foot to the left"? And where did the decision to do that come from?

[idomebutami]

There are no such commands.

This sort of seeing gets very subtle for me...gets a little muddy when I try to feel where the idea came from. First repsonse is that I thru desire created this idea...but something doesnt feel right about that. Can we please look into this further?

I would also like your ideas on the notion of Truth needing to be surrendered to and not aquired, it has to be more of an "allowing" rather than a "trying". I feel that if i were to surrender...first of all, what am i surrendering and what am i surrendering to? And who is surrendering? I REALLY WANT TO SURRENDER, but perhaps the wanting to reinforces this idea of a separate entity..

[Chris]

There are no such commands.

mmhmm

This sort of seeing gets very subtle for me...gets a little muddy when I try to feel where the idea came from. First repsonse is that I thru desire created this idea...but something doesnt feel right about that. Can we please look into this further?

The way to look at this is to look at the process. You think it may come from desire, well then look at the next action you take. Look at where that desire to act came from, trace it back and see how the process played out. If you find the cause, what caused that cause? We think in terms of simple cause and effect, but is cause and effect as simple as we assume it to be? How many factors come together to create any one action or thought?

I would also like your ideas on the notion of Truth needing to be surrendered to and not aquired, it has to be more of an "allowing" rather than a "trying". I feel that if i were to surrender...first of all, what am i surrendering and what am i surrendering to? And who is surrendering? I REALLY WANT TO SURRENDER, but perhaps the wanting to reinforces this idea of a separate entity..

I don’t know where that notion that truth needs to be surrendered to came from. There are five senses and there is thought. Observe the direct experience of the senses and the thoughts that arise about these sense experiences Do not try to figure this out, OBSERVE. There is experience and then thought about experience, is there a you if there is no thought? Observe what is going on. This is not spiritual and it is not special. It’s already the case, there are just so many ideas that you are paying attention to in your head that you are missing the simple truth of what is actually going on.

[Chris]

Are you still looking, David? Does it make sense when I say to observe rather than try to figure this out? My biggest problem was that I didn't understand that this was about looking at what is rather than trying to figure something out by logical deduction or reasoning. It has to be seen, not just understood. That's why it's important to drop all expectations about this and just look at what's pointed to in the way it's suggested. Most likely what we are pointing to here is not at all what you are anticipating it may be.

[idomebutami]

Im sure thats accurate, but its the point from which Im looking that is illusory, how can I look from a person and discover something prior to personhood? When I observe...I see that thoughts just arise...but its harder for me to separate my sense of self from actions..

[idomebutami]

I just watched my hand do something that i didn't "direct"...its almost like im claiming ownership after the fact. But how do i make this really internal?

[Chris]

Im sure thats accurate, but its the point from which Im looking that is illusory, how can I look from a person and discover something prior to personhood?

You are not looking from a person. There is no you. There is just looking. You’re here to notice the complete absence of an actual you and not to discover some big cosmic “prior to personhood” you. Outside of the senses and thoughts about the senses, what can be found?

I just watched my hand do something that i didn't "direct"...its almost like im claiming ownership after the fact. But how do i make this really internal?

You don’t have to make it internal, the truth of it just has to be seen. Once it’s seen, it can’t be unseen. There’s an action and then there’s a thought after the fact claiming ownership. Ownership is no more than a thought. The action isn’t yours, the thought isn’t yours. You aren’t doing any of this. You don’t exist. There are actions and thoughts. There is no control, there is no YOU.

[Chris]

Hi David. How's it going?

[idomebutami]

Hi Chris, sorry for the holiday delay.

One thing that I have found as a "road block" to seeing this truth is that...I have this habit of trying to objectify everything...Its like I need to feel like this "I/consciousness" is a "something"...so its a little difficult for me to be sititing here typing as a "something" trying to realize the impersonal/"no-thing" truth behind all of that. Im not trying to complicate things...but please help me to adjust my seeing mechanism to recognize the non-phenomenal rather than habitually objectifying everything.

[Chris]

You have been looking to see if the I/consciousness is actually a something. If there is no control or ownership of actions or thought, what exactly is this something you are saying you are?

[idomebutami]

Even in a brief momentary perspective of non-ownership, its still a "state" that requires volition, it requires consent for action... from this sense of self that I am. I am still feeling a sense of control and ownership within that mechanism. Through introspection i can see..intillectually, that a person cant exist...but I cant seem to have that moment that you describe as one that cant be forgotten...or unseen.

[Chris]

Observe the experience of sight. Just plain, simple, everyday sight. Try to ignore any thoughts about what is seen and observe just pure, raw sense of sight. Sit quietly and look around the room. Is there effort required to see if the eyes are open? Are there instructions required from you to make sight happen? Smell? Hearing? Touch? Taste?

Observe the thoughts that occur. Thoughts follow either sensory experience or other thoughts. Is there effort required for a thought to occur? Is there control of thought or is there a flow from one thought to the next that can be observed? Do you know what the next thought will be?

The content of the thoughts that occur, if believed, creates the story of a you. Not just of a you, but of an entire life/world/universe that is experienced. Look, really look at this, can you see it?

[idomebutami]

The problem is I can sense that I am looking from the perspective of a thought... how will i be able to see all of these things your pointing to if my starting position is a false concept?

The best i can do is a solid intillectual grasp...

Im sitting here, im looking around, there are no insructions or control required to see...it is just happening... But what does this mean for the "me" that is observing this? Do i need to stay/(effort) in this clean sort of perspective in order to shift into it permanently as a living truth...? Because i can see this non-personal phenomenon occuring, but its almost as if the profundity of it is not registering for me...

[Chris]

The problem is I can sense

There is no you, there is just a sense.

that I am looking from the perspective of a thought...

There is no you, there is just looking. You are just a thought, can a thought look?

how will i be able to see all of these things your pointing to if my starting position is a false concept?

You will not be able to see and you do not have a starting position, you do not exist.

The best i can do is a solid intillectual grasp...

You do not have a solid intellectual grasp, there is no you. There is just a solid intellectual grasp. A concept that arises and dissipates. There are thoughts. No owner, just thoughts. There is no you having the thoughts. There is no actual subject/object, there is just experience with no actual division except conceptually. The belief in/thought of a you is just part of the experience and not an actual thing The concept contains the idea/belief of an owner of the "solid intellectual grasp". There is no actual owner, none!

There is a belief that there is a you that is searching for something and that this you will be better off once some perspective shift is experienced. There is a belief that there is a you doing this inquiry and doing these exercises and looking and getting frustrated. If the truth is seen, if the false belief in an actual self that has something to gain from this is seen as merely a thought/belief and not a reality, then this inquiry is done.

Im sitting here, im looking around, there are no insructions or control required to see...it is just happening... But what does this mean for the "me" that is observing this?

There is no you.

Do i need to stay/(effort) in this clean sort of perspective in order to shift into it permanently as a living truth...?

There is no you. There is no control because there is no controller. If the truth is seen, there will be no confusion that there is or ever was a you that could shift permanently into any clean, dirty, neutral or other perspective.

Because i can see this non-personal phenomenon occuring, but its almost as if the profundity of it is not registering for me...

There is a belief that "you" will get something out of this. This is about loss of an erroneous belief not a perspective shift that will enhance the experience of life or make it more spiritual or special.

I am saying that you don't exist. Literally there is no you doing any of this. THERE IS NO YOU.

You seem to see the lack of a doer, of a thinker, of a YOU. Next time you see this, ask the question: "If there is no me, then who thought that thought (who moved that shoulder, who looked around the room, etc.)?" When an answer comes up (via thought) ask again, "if there is no me, where did that answer come from?" Continue in this manner. See where it leads...

[idomebutami]

So i am confusing the innate sense of self that I am...with the objective "what" that I beleive myself to be.

There is no what..there is no me. So than what am I that is exchanging with you?

There is only exchanging... All actions occur regardless of ownership...

I am confusing this "life" and "story" with what I AM, but there is no I..?

I cant seem to separate this knowingness that is present... from all that is known...Because even "I" can sense this knowingness..even though Im not really real...

So than even this typing that i believe I am doing...is just happening regardless of what i am experiencing as volitionary action..

So than what is aware of me being aware of something greater than me??