Would like to be guided

[Finoh]

Hi Udagga,

“I am very aware of not wanting to use I, me or my typing this.”

No problem using them. It would sound strange if you did not use them. You know they are just thoughts not your true essence.

“Has the search ended? No still looking for something that's not there! If this were juggling, the balls are going all over the place. The shift to just being able to do it hasn't occurred. I'm hoping that makes some sense.”

How will you know the search has ended?

What boxes do you need to tick to say the search has ended?

When would your "I" say the search has ended? (This question has the potential for building an endless loop).

Does the search ever end?

It took me over a week after going through the gate for the doubt to stop that I had actually seen through the illusion. I had a string of thoughts like, this can't be it, it can't be this simple, where is the big bucket of bliss and why did I not see this before (when in actual fact I did see it over a year before but had no confirmation or after gate guidance that would have been really helpful. I spent a year listening to thoughts that I had not seen it then).

At what point looking for something that is not there (is an illusion) would you stop looking?

There is a thought or idea of an "I" but I can't see it, feel it, touch it, taste it or smell it.

That is correct it is a 'thought'. After going through the gate these thoughts are still going to arise, although I have noticed they arise a lot less often. The bottom line is that the "I" is just a thought so it does not matter whether it arises or not, as it has no power.

Cheers

Ian

[John H]

Hi Ian

How will you know the search has ended?

When there is nothing to search for.

What boxes do you need to tick to say the search has ended?

It feels like there are no boxes to tick. Nothing to be done.

When would your "I" say the search has ended?

"I" is a thought, an idea, a label. It can't speak, think or anything else.

Does the search ever end?

Life carries on.

At what point looking for something that is not there (is an illusion) would you stop looking?

When I know it's not there. Imaginary.

Woke up this morning and that sense of an "I" existing seemed to be less definite, rather just thoughts and sensations arising out of nothing. Feels quite simple and obvious. So thoughts of 'Is that it?', like i've read elsewhere. No drama or fireworks or 'buckets of bliss'. Feels a bit of a relief.

Is that it?

Thanks
Udagga

[Finoh]

Hi Udagga,

How will you know the search has ended?
When there is nothing to search for.

When you have searched diligently and have looked at all avenues and can’t find anything that is when you usually stop searching. At some point it dawns on you that what you are searching for does not exist.

I feel you are ready for the final questions. Some you have answered in your posts but answer them here again as a number of other guides will have a detailed look at your answers together with what you have previously posted. Take your time and put in plenty of detail. Try and answer from direct experience.

So thoughts of 'Is that it?', like i've read elsewhere. No drama or fireworks or 'buckets of bliss'. Feels a bit of a relief.

I had a similar awakening. I thought , “Is this it, where are the bells and whistles, years of study, hundreds of books, 1000’s of hours of video and audio and I end up with a ‘B’ grade awakening. Life’s not fair” Ha Ha Ha!

The questions

Please answer in detail, each question, honestly and earnestly, and refer to direct experience. If the question requires analysis and speculation, start with direct experience, here and now first, then let thoughts flow.


1) Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?


2) When you say "I", what in Experience are you referring to?



3) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works.



4) How does it FEEL to see this? describe in detail.



5) How would you describe it to somebody who has never heard about this illusion but is curious about it.



6) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look? was there a specific moment when seeing happened or was it gradual? what exactly happened?



7) Describe the difference before seeing, at the moment of seeing, and after seeing? Describe the key difference?



8) In what ways has thing changed your life? what impact will this have on your life?



9) What if I told you LU was a persuasion cult and we have just got you to believe that "there is no self". How would you respond?



10) Do you have any comments about my guiding, what you feel was effective, and what was not so effective, and why?


Your answers will be reviewed by other guides. Clarifications may be asked, or you will be confirmed. You will then have access to our post-gate groups for further discussion/chat/inquiry, etc.

Cheers

Ian

[John H]

Hi Ian

Busy day so don't expect i can answer all this at the moment and want to spend some time.

Today I wonder if I've got this?

Is there a 'me' or 'you' or 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever? Will there ever be?

There are thoughts with 'me' etc.contained in them and physical sensations. There is no me and never has been or will be. It feels ludicrous to say there is. However seem to be stuck with a sense of presence i.e. me seems to be a collective label for thoughts, sensations (particularly physical) and awareness or presence. When looked and experienced this presence is sensations in the body. Not a thing. Not something that watches. Feeling a bit like 'I' may have decided to rename itself. Also aware that's just another thought.

Also aware that "I" even as a thought is not around most of the time and that is no different to how it always is or has been. I never think "I am typing" it just kind of happens for example. That dialogue usually isn't there.

Feels like something has just slipped out of sight a bit. So kind of thinking I need to sit with these questions.

Back to work!

Thanks
Udagga

[Finoh]

Hi Udagga,

Just let it settle in for a couple of days and take your time with the answers. I did exactly the same thing. There can be a certain sense of "Have I really got this?". It is like being told you have won a large prize and whilst excited at the prospect not being fully willing to believe it until the prize is in your hands. Anyway take your time.

Cheers

Ian

[John H]

Hi Ian

A few things experienced over the past 24 hours. One is that nothing has happened and everything is exactly the same. Around this a feeling of 'no one home' and observing life happening and wondering how that can be? Some fear and anxiety about disappearing into nothing. Kind of feeling very present but not.At some point realising that life is and always has been spontaneous, just responding to the moment. That felt a bit amusing.

So kind of feels a bit jarring at the moment. Old habits die hard?

Thanks
Udagga

[Finoh]

Hi Udagga

Some fear and anxiety about disappearing into nothing.

I can understand that. It’s like a fear that one day you will drown in a mirage. (Ian’s early morning attempt at humour). The bottom line is that you are ‘no thing’ and that the ‘I’ is just an appearance in it but you have lived life under the illusion that this ‘I’ is real, that’s why it is often referred to as the big cosmic joke. Now you will probably read the aforesaid answer and say that is exactly right and completely agree with it intellectually and THEN a few hours later fear or anxiety might arise again and as you say “Old habits die hard.”

When you become aware of fear or anxiety about this process, the mind tends to distract itself away from the anxiety and the “hunting.” Look directly at the anxiety. Pinpoint its message. Is it “If there is no self, I will disappear?” Or “Without a self, I will cease to exist?” Sometimes it’s “Without a self, nothing will get done.” Check and find out what the fear or anxiety is. Then ask, “Is it true?” What evidence do I have? Can I know this absolutely?
You will not disappear. You cannot. You never “were” in the first place. Existence exists and always has and always will. What does not exist is this “you” the imaginary ownership of a piece of existence.

Let whatever comes, come. Just look at it, even fear. Notice that the fear is the result of what is being thought.
Consider any fear you have of no-self to be a protective mechanism. It is doing its job perfectly, and it is a loyal friend and protector. Can you look at the fear itself, how it works, and where it is felt in the body? Ask it to come closer. Check that raw feeling. Is it personal? Ask it what it is protecting. What is it that it does not want you to find out? Bow to it. Thank it, and look behind the fear as if you would be taking a peek with curiosity. What is behind it?

Life is just “life-ing.” Anxiety may appear from time to time, but there is no one there to attach to it. It is seen that that “me” is just passing by as a thought in the thought-sensation stream.
Doubt is to be expected, And it’s not an enemy. It only points to unresolved “stuff.” Once seeing happens, the whole structure of belief starts to fall like dominoes. Don’t fear it; welcome it. There is no one to control it. Just trust the process and let it be okay.

Finally the one thing I have done when any ‘issue’ has come up that there is a concern about is to ask the question, “who or what is this happening to?”

Cheers

Ian

[John H]

Hi Ian

Thanks for that.

I like the term 'Gateless Gate" as it implies no gate, no this side or the other side and nothing to get through. Funny! Clever!

Felt like some expectations and assumptions have had to be ditched today. No dhyana, no special state and no huge ah ha! That obvious, huh!?! It's always been like this for 'me' and everyone else. Unwrapped the gift and there was nothing there.

Thanks or pulling the lotus out beneath my backside!

Letting it sink in.

Thanks
Udagga

[John H]

Morning Ian

Occasional twinge of anxiety but nothing much. As you said previously lots of thoughts checking and rechecking if I've deluded myself, if this is it - because of the simplicity. What is interesting is that I guess most of the time no-one has thoughts of "I" in their heads anyhow. Everyone just gets on with things, without thinking.

Have a good day/evening
Thanks
Udagga

[John H]

Hi Ian

Am pondering the questions you sent.

Something that comes up is the question of separation. In direct experience whilst sat here looking at this laptop typing, there is an awareness of physical sensations which gives a spatial awareness of where I am in relation to what I'm seeing. I'm aware of 'where I am' being a thought and of physical sensation and of seeing.

Thoughts arise of 'being one with my experience' and 'in the seen, just the seen etc.' and of how the experience should be. So this kind of expands the checking process going on at the moment and the earlier post.

Thanks
Udagga

[Finoh]

Hi Udagga,

The questions I posted for you are part of the checking process. Your answers once checked by a number of other guides will give a good understanding of where you are at. Further work can them be done if clarification is needed, so start working on the questions.

There is a strong temptation to go back into the mind to see how you are going. The mind got you into trouble in the first place. If I said to you I was going to ask you a question and you had to answer instantly the first thing that came into your mind without any thinking, analysis, calculating, pontificating, deciding, tossing a coin etc and the only answer you could give was YES or NO what would your answer to this question be, WAIT for it.

"IS THERE AN 'I'?" Yes or No.

Simple isn't it?

Cheers

Ian

[John H]

Hi Ian

NO.

Simple isn't it? Yes.

Enjoy your day, off to bed.

Thank-you
Udagga

[John H]

Hi Ian

Here's the answers to the final questions.

1) There is no me, I or you. Has never been or will be.

2) I is a thought or part of a thought.

3) The illusion of a separate self is of something/someone who senses what is being sensed and who owns and has thoughts, owns and has a body. It is believed there is something that exists separate to thoughts and sensations and somehow resides within the body. It believes it controls its life.

It seems that the label or name or idea of 'me' is believed to be existing in its own right, whereas it is a label attached to the flow of felt sensations (or other sensations) and thoughts which arise out of nowhere/nothing. it is like the idea of family. I can point to brothers and sisters but not to anything in particular as 'family'. It's a collective label. It only exists as a concept or thought.

It must start and be learned in childhood. The world is populated by by the idea that a separate self is true and that what we think is true. The child copies what it sees or experiences. Taught to believe the labels are the things in themselves.


4)It feels obvious and true. it feels freeing. it feels calm, peaceful and a relief. Mostly feels no different. Everything as it was. Like something that was known anyway.

5) There are sensations and there are thoughts. They get called collectively 'me'. There is a confusion then that this me really exists, but there are only sensations and thoughts.

6) After reading the book there was a moment of realising there was no observer, no one being aware. The question regarding has 'I' ever existed seemed to resonate and whilst running, the conviction of their never being an 'I' felt funny and freeing. The last bit was about realising thoughts about 'I', weren't 'I' and I was reminded of the pink elephant analogy. Ask someone not to think of pink elephants and they do. The process had thoughts about 'I' tumbling out of my head but of course, they are just thoughts regardless of content. The process feels more gradual than sudden and it feels like it has been happening for some years.

7) in the main it feels like there is no difference between now and before except I can't posit a self in the way of experience. There is no need for it. And there is a recognition that it has always been so. Seeing that a thought of "I" is just a thought felt really obvious. How could I have not seen that one!

8) Life hasn't changed. It just continues. Impact? Expect a change in habits but will have to see.

9) No self accords with my experience of life and fits. Makes sense of how things seem to be.

10) Very grateful for your time, clarity, patience and direct approach. It kind of feels like being set traps to fall into out of which clarity arises. The reflecting back of all the "I" sentences was really useful and very much pushed me into the problem.

Many thanks
Udagga

[Finoh]

Hi Udagga,

It has been a pleasure guiding you. I have enjoyed your insightful comments and will definitely be using a few of them in my guiding of others. I will put up your responses for other guides to see and if they have any questions I will get back to you. I will send you a private message on what else will happen after I have had a few other guides look at your responses.

Cheers

Ian