I Need Guidance

[vinceschubert]

I don't know how to "see" the lack of separation

The question was about separation, not lack of separation.
Do you experience separation ? If so, how is it experienced ?

[Noobstorm]

Do you experience separation ? If so, how is it experienced ?

Yes it is experienced, because everything looks separate to me.

[vinceschubert]

because everything looks separate to me.

I was going to say that this is an optical illusion, but the moment that thought arose, it became clear that it is a habitual mental reference point that causes the illusion.
Take an object like a glass and sit it in front of you within arms reach.
Look at it and as you do notice how the mind says glass (labels it).
Now look at its' various attributes. Notice how labeling occurs. (shiny, round, etc)
Now close your eyes and notice the image/impression of it in your mind. It may be a residual visual image or something else. Just notice it. The attributes may change slightly. Just notice.
Now open eyes and keep looking at it and wait for the mind to stop doing this. Notice how difficult it is to just see 'something'. Keep looking and it will happen.
When this happens, notice how there is just seeing. No You looking or glass being seen.
Notice when mind inserts itself into the seeing, and once again it becomes the see-er and the seen.
Without mind there is only seeing.
Try this with eyes closed and use the sense of touch. Follow a similar routine and notice where mind changes everything from touching to labels of something (seemingly) separate.

[Noobstorm]

Okay, though I'm not quite sure what the goal of the exercise is or it doesn't work for me :S

Without mind there is only seeing.

Sure, there is only seeing. But how can you say a rock several meters away from you is not separate?

[vinceschubert]

But how can you say a rock several meters away from you is not separate?

In seeing, Both see-er and seen are required. Remove either then neither exist. (except as a story in your mind) How can there be separation ? Only the mind behaves as if separation exists. In experience, everything only exists because of everything else.

[Noobstorm]

In seeing, Both see-er and seen are required.

Yes, and they are also separate. If there were a rock a few meters away from me, I would have no association with it whatsoever besides looking at it. So, in my experience, they are separate.

[vinceschubert]

If there were a rock a few meters away from me, I would have no association with it whatsoever besides looking at it.

When you look at it there is an association.
Is it still there when you don't look at it (except as a memory) ?
If you say "yes" then tell how you know, beyond belief.

So, in my experience, they are separate.

This is not an experience. It is an idea.
If you experience separation, tell of the sensations that you have as experiencing occurs.

[Noobstorm]

When you look at it there is an association.

This human being is the only thing controlled in experience and it is separate because I don't fully "experience" anything as I do with the human being.

Is it still there when you don't look at it (except as a memory) ?

No, anything not in experience exists as thoughts

If you experience separation, tell of the sensations that you have as experiencing occurs

Hearing, tasting, smelling, seeing, feeling.

[vinceschubert]

vince says; If you experience separation, tell of the sensations that you have as experiencing occurs.
Ali says; Hearing, tasting, smelling, seeing, feeling.

Isn't it the case that any of these senses require stimulation to become active ?
If they are being activated by a connection with whatever is being sensed, then that dance requires all partners to happen. Ergo, no separation. In fact, a joining. And only when we are joined does experiencing start. Only when we are One, can the dance begin.
If something were truly separate, then it couldn't be part of Experiencing, as there would be no connection and thus no sense stimulation.

[vinceschubert]

Ali, this will be helpful in seeing what you are having difficulty seeing at the moment.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/beau-lott ... 1353030607

vince

[Noobstorm]

If they are being activated by a connection with whatever is being sensed, then that dance requires all partners to happen. Ergo, no separation.

I still don't know how someone can intrinsically "know" this non separation.

Also, since experience is affected by the belief in the self.. does that mean it can be "real"?

[vinceschubert]

I still don't know how someone can intrinsically "know" this non separation.

A 'self' (someone) can only know (believe) what is included in the story (of self)
Experiencing non-separation is most likely to happen when the delusion of a self is seen through. Mind requires dividing and labeling in order to maintain the illusion of control. Oneness will never be recognised by the mind.

since experience is affected by the belief in the self.. does that mean it can be "real"?

The experience is real whether it is the result of belief in something true or something false. A child will respond to Santa Claus. You respond to (your story of a) 'self'. The response is "real", what is being responded to isn't.
Ali, best not to chase the non-separation yet. SEEing the delusion of self is the most accessible portal.
If i say to you that ALL thoughts are stories, can you see how this is so ?

[Noobstorm]

If i say to you that ALL thoughts are stories, can you see how this is so ?

Not completely. Thought is needed to function.

[Noobstorm]

Mind requires dividing and labeling in order to maintain the illusion of control

But there is control.. there is control of this human being and not the things around this organism.

[vinceschubert]

But there is control

Is there ? or does it just seem that there is.
How do you experience control ?