Guidance requested.

[idomebutami]

Hi Chris, im David. (happy to report a weakened sense of ownership of that name)

This is what i watched my mind do before it became quiet: If the only Truth is this unassociated state of I-am...and if it is here and now always, than the "I" that i think I am right now, must be the same "I" that i am "trying to find".

So through a sort of cognitive reductionism I was able to remove alot of the elements of the seeker. But, it feels like it is all still being witnessed... and getting to the position of that witness is something i would greatly love to "accomplish".

thorns to remove thorns...?

[Chris]

Hi Chris, im David. (happy to report a weakened sense of ownership of that name)

This is what i watched my mind do before it became quiet: If the only Truth is this unassociated state of I-am...and if it is here and now always, than the "I" that i think I am right now, must be the same "I" that i am "trying to find".

So through a sort of cognitive reductionism I was able to remove alot of the elements of the seeker. But, it feels like it is all still being witnessed... and getting to the position of that witness is something i would greatly love to "accomplish".

thorns to remove thorns...?

If it is here and now always, what would have to be done to get to the position of that witness? Try more observation of how thought works and less "cognitive reductionism". This has to be seen and not just understood.

[idomebutami]

I suppose the idea is to be fully established AS the witness. I can watch thoughts from a totally detached standpoint, i can see how they arise and fall away. But WHO AM I that is watching and what is watching ME? I still feel the bifurcation of mind and presence

[Chris]

I suppose the idea is to be fully established AS the witness. I can watch thoughts from a totally detached standpoint, i can see how they arise and fall away. But WHO AM I that is watching and what is watching ME? I still feel the bifurcation of mind and presence

You are supposing there is something that needs to be done in order to be what already is. Is there a you watching thoughts from a totally detached standpoint or are there just thoughts and then thoughts that claim there is a witness who is watching?

[idomebutami]

While considering your post...i found myself sort of snapping out of this "mental room" where I "figure stuff out" and was instantly more aware of my surroundings...as if, i havent really been looking to the MOST DIRECT experience at any moment as the "material" of my perspective/inquiry. Very subtle stuff.

Going back to before your reply, but in response to it... It definitley feels like a detached standpoint, but your suggestion is to notice if that particular perspective is also from the mind. Still very subtle... mind wants to construct something.

I am the space within which the idea of myself appears...

[Chris]

"I am the space within which the idea of myself appears..."

It may be helpful to drop this sort of thing and just look at what you actually experience instead of trying to anticipate what you might find...

[idomebutami]

That comment wasnt formulated out of anticipation, it came from an intuitive sense.

If I sit here and look at MY direct experience, don't I need to be clear on WHO is looking?

So, after a moment, I settle on this sense of self-hood...the "I" principle (I'm doing this now), things are very quiet. The only image appearing is the image of this "quiet" one within. As this is not a predominant state for me...I suppose what is required is to establish my self in this position further...to reside there knowingly? (You have to be a little flexible with me on the language I'm using, it's the only way I know how to convey THIS, my direct experience.) As Rupert Spira says "As we allow everything to be as it is, we are, unknowingly at first, taking our stand in our true nature. In fact we have never left our true nature but now we begin to reside there knowingly."

But I feel like there is still a finger pointing to this open space...

[Chris]

If I sit here and look at MY direct experience, don't I need to be clear on WHO is looking?

If you look at direct experience, perhaps you'll see that that there is no WHO. Can you find the little personal who, can you find the big cosmic WHO? Your posts are full of assumptions about what you'll find based on things you've read. Drop all expectations and just observe how thoughts unfold. Report what you observe and we can go from there.

[idomebutami]

Yes I have been looking from a position of assumptions.

When I look..I cant find anyone looking...but then who am I that is looking? That is pretty much my biggest hang up with all of this.

[Chris]

Yes I have been looking from a position of assumptions.

When I look..I cant find anyone looking...but then who am I that is looking? That is pretty much my biggest hang up with all of this.

Your biggest hang up is the point of the whole inquiry. If you can't find anyone looking then perhaps the existence of a who that is doing the looking is your biggest assumption of all.

Watch thoughts. Observe movement. Notice sounds. Can you find the controller, the owner of these things or just thoughts that claim ownership after the fact?

[idomebutami]

I can only find the thoughts that claim ownership...

There is no controller....or center.

[Chris]

I can only find the thoughts that claim ownership...

There is no controller....or center.

If there is no controller or center, then where do thoughts come from? Observe thoughts and let me know what you find.

[idomebutami]

Seems as if they just appear. Unless I am engaging a thought, if I am quiet... I am simply just watching thoughts from somewhat of a detached position. Sometimes I struggle though because it still feels like there is somewhat of an effort being expended to maintain this silence...

[Chris]

Seems as if they just appear. Unless I am engaging a thought, if I am quiet... I am simply just watching thoughts from somewhat of a detached position. Sometimes I struggle though because it still feels like there is somewhat of an effort being expended to maintain this silence...

Is there a you that is engaging thought, or is there just thought and then another thought that says you are watching. If you can't find the watcher, how do you know it's there? There is a sense of self, but is there an actual self?

[idomebutami]

I understand the wisdom in what your saying. So, is the sense of self what I am? If so, how can i, with love and wisdom, discern that intuitive sense of self...from this idea of an actual self that I still carry? Because at the end of the day, this has to move from intellectual to experiential.