Has the Gate been crossed?

[P5yx]

Hey David,

thanks for the confirmation and further materials for deepening the realization. I will look into them from time to time. Thanks a lot for your time.

Much love

[P5yx]

Hello,

I'm returning to this thread because I've become increasingly uncertain about my previous conclusion that I had seen through the illusion of a separate self.

At the time, I believed I had passed the Gate and was subsequently marked as a Gatecrasher. Since then, I've continued practicing meditation and self-inquiry, focusing mainly on the Ten Fetters framework.

In particular, I still experience a strong sense of being an observer or subjective center of experience, even though I cannot find a separate self when investigating it. For a long time, I understood this remaining identification with the subjective center as something related to the sixth fetter rather than the first. However, I've recently begun questioning that distinction, which has also led me to reconsider whether my original Gate crossing represented a genuine shift in identification.

I would therefore like to request a new guide to revisit the inquiry with an open mind and investigate any potential blind spots.

One concern I have is that, after years of inquiry, I've become quite familiar with the concepts and the kinds of answers that are expected. I would particularly appreciate a guide who can challenge my conceptual understanding and help distinguish intellectual knowledge from what is actually seen in direct experience.

Given my uncertainty, I would also appreciate having my Gatecrasher status reconsidered, as I no longer feel confident claiming that recognition.

Thank you for your help!

[Anastacia42]

Hi,

We'll see who's available.

Loving,

[P5yx]

Thank you very much. :)

[Elad]

Hello David,

I am a guide here and happy to chat with you and we can see if it feels helpful and take it from there. My first question to you would be, can you write something more about whatever seems missing for you, and also, what motivates you, like what are you hoping will come out of the exploration?

If you already answered these earlier, please bear with me and answer as fresh and from the heart as you can now.

[P5yx]

Hello,

thank you for taking the time to accompany me through this inquiry.

My first question to you would be, can you write something more about whatever seems missing for you, and also, what motivates you, like what are you hoping will come out of the exploration?

What seems to be missing is
a) the unshakable conviction that the illusion of the separate self (fetter 1) has been seen through. There still seem to be doubts whether the shift was genuine. I often heard that doubt should be absent after the gate was passed (wrong expectation?).
b) a sense of openness. Here, attention seems to be attracted by density. Specifically in the head region/behind the eyes where experience seems to be centered around.

I am hoping for gaining that conviction/losing such doubts and also have wrong expectations dispelled.
I'd also like to know where I am at in the unfettering process. I am aware that this is a thought that might block deeper insights. But it's stubborn. Also I'd like you to really challenge my findings so that conceptual insights are clearly uncovered.

If you already answered these earlier, please bear with me and answer as fresh and from the heart as you can now.

No worries about the past conversation. I'd like to approach this inquiry from ground zero with a fresh beginner's mind.

[Elad]

What seems to be missing is

a) the unshakable conviction that the illusion of the separate self (fetter 1) has been seen through. There still seem to be doubts whether the shift was genuine. I often heard that doubt should be absent after the gate was passed (wrong expectation?).

What do you wish this certainty will give you?

Are you willing while we explore to drop all models and expectations based on other peoples words and only respond from looking in your own direct experience and your own heart?

b) a sense of openness. Here, attention seems to be attracted by density. Specifically in the head region/behind the eyes where experience seems to be centered around.

Please sit with and feel into these sensations you describe as deeply as possible. What is felt and experienced?

Is there anything in direct experience telling you that they are not good or not desirable or opposed to clarity?

I am hoping for gaining that conviction/losing such doubts and also have wrong expectations dispelled.
I'd also like to know where I am at in the unfettering process.

I would encourage you to drop the model of unfettering process while we explore. Not because it is "wrong", but because right now it seems to create a preoccupation with a conceptual model rather then pure attendance to what is actually there/not there and what is emotionally and experientially going on in the most direct sense. Let me know if that sounds okay with you.

I am aware that this is a thought that might block deeper insights. But it's stubborn. Also I'd like you to really challenge my findings so that conceptual insights are clearly uncovered.

I am totally with you in the intention to support you to bring all your attention and energy only to your direct experience.

[P5yx]

What do you wish this certainty will give you?

On the surface, that the inquiry is directed at the right structures/beliefs. On a deeper level, probably to keep the seeking I alive which measures the path's progress.

Are you willing while we explore to drop all models and expectations based on other peoples words and only respond from looking in your own direct experience and your own heart?

100%.

Please sit with and feel into these sensations you describe as deeply as possible. What is felt and experienced?

There is a persistent sense of perspective centered somewhere behind the eyes or forehead. It feels like a point from which the visual field opens outward. Around this center is a ring of facial sensations, with the greatest density or pressure concentrated near the center.

With eyes closed, the inner visual field seems organized around a similar perspective, as though it originates from that same dense center. Closing my eyes actually increases the pressure. The denser facial sensations seem to correspond to darker regions around the edges of the inner visual field, while lighter patterns toward the middle create an impression of forward distance. Together, these give rise to a tunnel-like experience.

Sometimes mental images of my face or head appear within this space. They seem to be located in front of me, as though I'm viewing them from a distance.

This entire structure—the central density, facial sensations, and sense of looking outward—feels like "me," even though I cannot find a separate observer within it. Still, there is this sense of I am here remaining.

When I try to look directly at the apparent center of observation, another viewpoint seems to form behind it. I can notice these shifts from one observer position to another. Following this backward movement eventually leads to a more spacious sensation behind the head, which is then interpreted as a less localized observer. I'm unsure whether this process of searching for the observer actually reinforces the assumption that there must be someone looking.

When I relax attention instead of tracing the observer backward, the sense of looking *through* this structure diminishes. The visual field simply seems to be there, without an obvious observer—just the seen.

However, the density and pressure in the head remain. They quickly draw attention back, and the familiar observer perspective re-establishes itself. There is also a belief that the observerless experience should become permanent and the observer tunnel should vanish completely.

One further observation: whenever attention lands on one of the dense sensations around the face, forehead, or behind the eyes, that sensation seems to acquire a sense of "me." It's as though the simple act of attending to these sensations makes them feel like the location of myself.

Also, there is the belief of a real head being present although only sensations and images are found in direct experience.

Is there anything in direct experience telling you that they are not good or not desirable or opposed to clarity?

A while ago, there were strong recoiling movements away from the face/head density. now these recoils movements seem to have subsided and there is a resting with the density. It feels uncomfortable and thoughts project that openness/lightness is preferable.

I would encourage you to drop the model of unfettering process while we explore. Not because it is "wrong", but because right now it seems to create a preoccupation with a conceptual model rather then pure attendance to what is actually there/not there and what is emotionally and experientially going on in the most direct sense. Let me know if that sounds okay with you.

Absolutely.

[Elad]

Are you willing while we explore to drop all models and expectations based on other peoples words and only respond from looking in your own direct experience and your own heart?

100%.

Great

What do you wish this certainty will give you?

On the surface, that the inquiry is directed at the right structures/beliefs. On a deeper level, probably to keep the seeking I alive which measures the path's progress.

Look at this question again. You need to get beyond beliefs to what feels clearly like the truth from your heart. It is not about if it is profound or not, just that it is raw and from your heart rather then head. FEEL into what you hope this certainty will give you. Sit with this.

Please sit with and feel into these sensations you describe as deeply as possible. What is felt and experienced?

There is a persistent sense of perspective centered somewhere behind the eyes or forehead. It feels like a point from which the visual field opens outward. Around this center is a ring of facial sensations, with the greatest density or pressure concentrated near the center.

With eyes closed, the inner visual field seems organized around a similar perspective, as though it originates from that same dense center. Closing my eyes actually increases the pressure. The denser facial sensations seem to correspond to darker regions around the edges of the inner visual field, while lighter patterns toward the middle create an impression of forward distance. Together, these give rise to a tunnel-like experience.

Sometimes mental images of my face or head appear within this space. They seem to be located in front of me, as though I'm viewing them from a distance.

This entire structure—the central density, facial sensations, and sense of looking outward—feels like "me," even though I cannot find a separate observer within it. Still, there is this sense of I am here remaining.

When I try to look directly at the apparent center of observation, another viewpoint seems to form behind it. I can notice these shifts from one observer position to another. Following this backward movement eventually leads to a more spacious sensation behind the head, which is then interpreted as a less localized observer. I'm unsure whether this process of searching for the observer actually reinforces the assumption that there must be someone looking.

When I relax attention instead of tracing the observer backward, the sense of looking *through* this structure diminishes. The visual field simply seems to be there, without an obvious observer—just the seen.

However, the density and pressure in the head remain. They quickly draw attention back, and the familiar observer perspective re-establishes itself. There is also a belief that the observerless experience should become permanent and the observer tunnel should vanish completely.

One further observation: whenever attention lands on one of the dense sensations around the face, forehead, or behind the eyes, that sensation seems to acquire a sense of "me." It's as though the simple act of attending to these sensations makes them feel like the location of myself.

Also, there is the belief of a real head being present although only sensations and images are found in direct experience.

Is there a belief you should not be able to know where you are conventionally speaking? Why would you wish that? Make sure to drop what engaging with fetter models and other stuff from other people have thought you. Only your direct experience.

Is there anything in direct experience telling you that they are not good or not desirable or opposed to clarity?

A while ago, there were strong recoiling movements away from the face/head density. now these recoils movements seem to have subsided and there is a resting with the density. It feels uncomfortable and thoughts project that openness/lightness is preferable.

Sit some more with whatever sensations are uncomfortable. Look to feel them as deeply as possible. Describe to me what happens.

[P5yx]

Your questions were more difficult to answer then I expected and I am still not sure if I really answered them from the Heart. There is confusion and doubt what is the truth from my heart.

Look at this question again. You need to get beyond beliefs to what feels clearly like the truth from your heart. It is not about if it is profound or not, just that it is raw and from your heart rather then head. FEEL into what you hope this certainty will give you. Sit with this.

There is fear of running in the wrong direction and being stuck in a spiritual limbo, wasting this life time. I am not saying that the awakening journey would be a waste of time but unknowingly exchanging my old belief system with a more spiritual one certainly would be for me.

Is there a belief you should not be able to know where you are conventionally speaking?

Yes, there is the belief that I should only know that I am but not where I am located.

Why would you wish that?

Because this located me feels so isolated and cramped. Like being prisoned inside the head density.

Sit some more with whatever sensations are uncomfortable. Look to feel them as deeply as possible. Describe to me what happens.

There is strong density, pressure and tension in the head region. When feeling them as deeply as possible, a peaceful space opens up while the density remains. This takes some time, however. After a while the peaceful space vanishes and the struggle with the density reappears.

[Elad]

Your questions were more difficult to answer then I expected and I am still not sure if I really answered them from the Heart. There is confusion and doubt what is the truth from my heart.

Thank you for the honesty. Can you be curious about this?

Look at this question again. You need to get beyond beliefs to what feels clearly like the truth from your heart. It is not about if it is profound or not, just that it is raw and from your heart rather then head. FEEL into what you hope this certainty will give you. Sit with this.

There is fear of running in the wrong direction and being stuck in a spiritual limbo, wasting this life time. I am not saying that the awakening journey would be a waste of time but unknowingly exchanging my old belief system with a more spiritual one certainly would be for me.

Okay good this sounds more raw. Explore this more, how is this fear felt and how does it operate in life and what happens when there is no trying to avoid it or fix it?

Explore this...

Is there a belief you should not be able to know where you are conventionally speaking?

Yes, there is the belief that I should only know that I am but not where I am located.

Can you put that belief aside? Being able to identify is part of functioning normal as a human.... This is not about making any part of normal experience go away. Rather, it is about looking if any of it truly is a ultimately separate self needing to control and choose. Or is everything ultimately spontaneous nature.

Why would you wish that?

Because this located me feels so isolated and cramped. Like being prisoned inside the head density.

The sensations are there. How is it decided if "the self" is inside them or they are inside "the self" or how they relate to each other? Is there a self outside or inside the sensations? If yes, how exactly?

Sit some more with whatever sensations are uncomfortable. Look to feel them as deeply as possible. Describe to me what happens.

There is strong density, pressure and tension in the head region. When feeling them as deeply as possible, a peaceful space opens up while the density remains. This takes some time, however. After a while the peaceful space vanishes and the struggle with the density reappears.

Explore more what happens when being with them as deeply as possible. What is it that causes the peace, what happens there actually?

[P5yx]

There was an insight yesterday night, after I had already typed the answers to your questions. After the insight, my answers seemed artificial. So I deleted everything and started over.

It was seen that the I is basically just an empty label. A story that arises whenever there are self-referential thoughts. The feeling of I was mistaken for a real separate entity. There constantly arise me-flavored tension patterns which, unchecked, are simply assumed to constitute an "I". When checked, there is just phenomena that might feel like myself (due to familiarity). No, separate I in them. So the label I points to basically nothing although it tries to convey that I is this body/mind apparatus. I have seen this before but seemed to have forgotten it again.

Thank you for the honesty. Can you be curious about this?

Certainly, yes. I still answered conceptually. It's actually much much simpler. Looking for what is here NOW might also constitute that your questions might simply uncover ... nothing at all. so no need to artificially construct an answer.

Okay good this sounds more raw. Explore this more, how is this fear felt and how does it operate in life and what happens when there is no trying to avoid it or fix it?

There is no such fear right now. But what I really seemed to be looking for in this shift was SAFETY for this body/mind. And ... this is simply not what this shift seems to give. The body/mind is as unsafe as ever. But there is no separate I in it.

Can you put that belief aside? Being able to identify is part of functioning normal as a human.... This is not about making any part of normal experience go away. Rather, it is about looking if any of it truly is an ultimately separate self needing to control and choose. Or is everything ultimately spontaneous nature.

Seeing through the separate self seems much less firework than I thought. It's basically, just the wrong identification with this body/mind/persona complex. But I was looking at it from the wrong direction. The mind somehow tried to deassemble the body/mind and get rid of it so that only space/being remains (and that I am this space then). But it's the other way around. everything is just as it always is, except no "I" in it. An I simply isn't necessary for the total to functioning of this body/mind apparatus. I think I was already looking for deeper insights while overseeing the assumption of the separate self.

The sensations are there. How is it decided if "the self" is inside them or they are inside "the self" or how they relate to each other? Is there a self outside or inside the sensations? If yes, how exactly?

The self is simply a label attached on a certain part of the current experience. Here, it is typically attached to different tension patterns in the head that feel like me (due to familiarity). Since these patterns aren't static but constantly morphing, the search to pin down a distinct "I" never stops.

Explore more what happens when being with them as deeply as possible. What is it that causes the peace, what happens there actually?

That was mainly the issue. I looked too deep into every experience. I thought the self might be so small/nondescript that it is able to hide deep inside sensations (or other phenomena like behind perspective etc.) so that these have to be penetrated deeper and deeper. Looked from different angles, etc. This strained me and the pressure patterns increased. Yesterday, I looked with a different approach. simply a quick glance into what is. If looking in that way, it's simply obvious that there is no such thing as a self.

I don't want to make the mistake again and prematurely declare this insight as the full seeing through the illusion of the separate self. I will describe as I see experience right now, so we can determine how to go from here:

Nothing is different. There is the body/mind with all of its thoughts and feelings. everyone is just speaking/thinking about a self although the body/minds are functioning on their own. Quite funny. ^^

I was expecting a shift in perception, an all encompassing feeling of being the entirety. It's nothing like that. It's exactly as before. There is just no separate I in experience. It's so simple that it was overlooked. I could also say this possibility wasn't trusted. It felt like I would have to believe this. But actually, one can simply look into what is and every time it will be clear that there is no separate I here.

What remains, however, are these ... hm... how should I say... selfing contractions which feel like getting sucked into a personal view of the body/mind. These can still feel like a localized self. When becoming aware of that, the spell breaks again and it is simply seen what is here. I am not sure if getting sucked into the personal view should be gone completely after a genuine break through. Maybe we can focus on here. I also don't know how this insight will show up in stressful situations. Also occasional doubts arise whether that was it. If this happens, there is an immediate look for the doubter. Should no doubts about this even arise after a genuine shift?