new topic as part of old selfing thread

[EMWBerry]

Hello!
I had attempted this once a few years back but was unsuccessful. I have recently experienced a strong restlessness which prompted me to start once again down this path. I was hoping I could do this on my own and have felt like i'm very close, but would be very appreciative if someone would be able to guide me. Answers to questions below…. many, many thanks!

1. LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
That life is just living itself. There is no separate I or entity who controls things and is in charge of a separate life. It's a thought or a word, part of language, a label, attaching itself to seemingly everything and mistakenly believed to be a real thing.
2. What are you looking for at LU?
I'm hoping someone here can point me (guide me) (push me) in the right direction so I can get to the bottom of this. There's just a very strong restlessness and unsettled feeling that i would love to resolve I know I have some blind spots, and fear and am not aware of all of the places I need to be looking for the self.
3. What do you expect from a guided conversation?
Well, I’ve read quite a few and I know that the guide poses certain questions and I’m supposed to answer them honestly by actually looking. I think my biggest expectation though is that the day to day engagement with a guide will provide some momentum and get me to look at/see whatever it is that needs to be seen. Also, the idea of engaging with someone who has been through this sounds very comforting.
4. What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
I don't have much of a spiritual background at all, just a regular person. I have some knowledge of certain spiritual practices and people in the spiritual world. Most of what I know is from falling down the google rabbit hole of trying to end suffering. Seeking for me started about 15 years ago after having kids. I suffered a significant childhood trauma at around age 9 and dealt with intense depression and anxiety for many years. I lived a fairly normal life despite that and true seeking didn’t start until my early 30’s.
5. On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about ‘self?
10. I feel pretty ready to be done with this.

[Noro]

Hello,

My name is Rowena and I am happy to be your guide. Please let me know what you would like me to call you.

I am beginning with the initial LU information just for formality even though you are familiar with the forum.

1. Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

2. Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

3. Please read the following documents from LU *carefully* and let me know if you have any reservations or doubts regarding them:

http://www.liberationunleashed.com/register/disclaimer/

and "Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041


4. Please make sure that you are subscribed to your thread. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “Subscribe topic’. Click on it once. (To be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show “Unsubscribe topic”.)

6. Please answer all questions individually, not in a bundle, as this will assist us both in having a clear dialogue. Also it is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

7. When replying to a question it makes it a lot easier to follow the enquiry using the 'Quote Function' to highlight the questions and answers. Here's a video link:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

Throughout this exploration the questions that I would like you to answer are written in blue text. But please check and answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text!!

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. And I will do so as well. This daily conversation will help to slowly unravel the conditioned, conceptual way of looking at our experience and see through the illusion. I cannot stress the value of this more.

Lets get started:

"THERE IS NO SEPARATE SELF, NO ONE IN CONTROL, THERE NEVER WAS AND NEVER WILL BE"

Read or say out loud this sentence. Then pause and take a moment and look into your direct experience..
Can you find anything to name or identify that is truly yourself, that is constant and invariable that stands apart from all other appearances?

After doing it many times, let me know what was seen, felt, discovered.

Please share only your immediate experience when you say or read those words, take note of any thoughts that are emotionally charged, even if you think they might be irrational and any sensations that are noticed in the body. Look for any contractions in head, heart or gut. Please keep to your direct experience and stay away from discussing and thoughts or ideas that are philosophical or spiritual or conceptual.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[EMWBerry]

Hi Rowena,
Thanks so much for the reply - you can call me Lisa. And thank you for the email. I'm realizing now that I was not actually subscribed to the topic. I really appreciate you taking the time to guide me. I have read the disclaimer and what LU is not. Also, I've reviewed the quote function and will plan to post daily.

After doing it many times, let me know what was seen, felt, discovered.

After reading that statement both aloud and to myself several times, I notice an immediate tightening sensation in my gut. Then very soon after, almost an incredulous feeling - like this can't be true and this is how people operate - with a self. Tightening releases. Then this gives way to a feeling of what a relief it would be to be true. All of this said, I know intellectually that it is true. In my direct experience, the only place I detect a self is in the content of thought. I can see several times throughout the day, things are just moving along without a real me. However, when reading aloud, I noticed more of that sense of self, like somehow the voice thoughts make it solid. Reading internally to myself, not as much.
Warm regards,
Lisa

[Noro]

Hello Lisa,

I am so glad we have finally connected here!

After reading that statement both aloud and to myself several times, I notice an immediate tightening sensation in my gut. Then very soon after, almost an incredulous feeling - like this can't be true and this is how people operate - with a self. Tightening releases. Then this gives way to a feeling of what a relief it would be to be true. All of this said, I know intellectually that it is true.

What you are talking about here is really great sensing. The body and mind are one complex organism and there is a felt component to the illusion as well. The body somehow learned that by contracting, it was doing something in order to have a semblance of control. My analogy: riding a bicycle while clutching at the brakes on the handlebars when all the while there are no actual brakes installed.

In my direct experience, the only place I detect a self is in the content of thought. I can see several times throughout the day, things are just moving along without a real me. However, when reading aloud, I noticed more of that sense of self, like somehow the voice thoughts make it solid. Reading internally to myself, not as much.

Yes, all part of the same sensory mechanism that creates the illusion.


Just to re-cap the importance of precise looking in direct experience:
COLORED SOCKS - HOW TO LOOK CLEARLY
I will probably be referring to this example throughout our inquiry as a reminder to always return to your direct experience.

There is a BIG difference between believing that there is no independent separate self, and seeing that there is no separate self .

If you can’t see for yourself directly, you cannot describe what you see in your own words.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks (or underwear) you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what color they are. Or,
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what color they ACTUALLY are!

You will agree that only by looking and verifying for yourself, you could be 100% certain, right? Yes/No

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that there is clarity about the difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. Attention is focusing on looking and seeing what is actually happening right here and right now, which is known as Direct Experience.


EXPERIENCE THOUGHTS WITH AND WITHOUT "I AM" LABEL
Here is an exercise which examines the way in which thoughts add labels to experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper. As with all the exercises going forward make sure you are comfortable and take a few deep breathes in order to be relaxed. This is not an intellectual exercise, but a kind of whole-body intuitive exercise attentive to the difference in the two perspectives. And you can't get it wrong!

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots.
For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry
I am thinking
I am writing.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time drop the “I am” label. Here you can see that experience, in simple language, does not require an experiencer. It can be just as it is without the addition of presumption of a self, of an "I".

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
hearing clock ticking
looking at computer screen
feeling hungry
thinking
writing

Finally, try the two together, first say with the "I am" label and next without: I am walking / walking

Pay attention to body sensations, watch what is happening in the body. Really take time to sense the difference. It may be subtle.
What is the body sensation when you say "I am ….."
What is the body sensation without the add-on of "I am…."?

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without the labels, including the label "I am", in your direct experience?

3. Do labels affect or alter the direct experience, including the label "I am" or just describe it?

4. Did you feel any differences in the body between the two ways?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[Noro]

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without the labels, including the label "I am", in your direct experience?

3. Do labels affect or alter the direct experience, including the label "I am" or just describe it?

4. Did you feel any differences in the body between the two ways?

[EMWBerry]

Hi Rowena
I happen to have a lot of free time today so I'm going ahead with this exercise. I hope that's ok.
I wrote them down on paper but not sure if you want me to list them. Just a sampling...
I am hearing sirens.
I am scratching nose.
I am crossing legs.
I am seeing computer screen.
I am thinking.
I am tasting candy.

Touching face
Checking phone
Walking to pantry
Reaching for food
Sitting down
Seeing cup

You will agree that only by looking and verifying for yourself, you could be 100% certain, right? Yes/No

Yes!

1. Does one feel intuitively 'truer', more spacious, than the other, and If so, which one?

The 2nd exercise feels truer and more spacious.

2. What is here without the labels, including the label "I am", in your direct experience?

Just the action or experience itself is here without the label "I am". So seeing, hearing, sensation, thought. i didn't happen to smell anything.

3. Do labels affect or alter the direct experience, including the label "I am" or just describe it?

Labels do not affect or alter the direct experience. In most cases, I noticed the labeling happens right after the action is initiated or happening. The I feels extra. Ex - I was itching my face before the thought came that I was scratching an itch.

4. Did you feel any differences in the body between the two ways?

With the "I am" label I noticed a very slight contraction in the gut area. When dropping that label, i felt a more open sensation and also sometimes neutral.

Warm Regards,
Lisa

[Noro]

Hello Lisa,

I happen to have a lot of free time today so I'm going ahead with this exercise. I hope that's ok.

Absolutely, I often respond promptly and so we can keep going at whatever pace suits!

I wrote them down on paper but not sure if you want me to list them. Just a sampling...

Perfect!

4. Did you feel any differences in the body between the two ways?

With the "I am" label I noticed a very slight contraction in the gut area. When dropping that label, i felt a more open sensation and also sometimes neutral.

Perfect! I recommend keeping in mind this exercise as it can be very stabilizing.


Here is an exercise that follows on from the last one:

HOW TO DISTINGUISH WHAT FEELS NATURAL, FREE AND ALIVE FROM WHAT FEELS CONTRACTED (FALSE/UNTRUE/A LIE)

We often 'lie' every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes, there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you might have been grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you 'lied', "I'm fine."

In conventional or consensus reality we are not going to be airing everything that is going on in our lives, but it is important that we become aware of our inner state of body sensations. While the body sensations are true, meaning that our direct experience of them is real, the way we interpret them can be misleading.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie. This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is important to notice the body sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body sensations & able to clearly describe them in words. This will help.
Lies can be felt in the upper body, often in the heart, solar plexus or arms, as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed. It feels like relief, like some heavy load has dropped away. You felt that when you did the exercise dropping the words "I am", do you remember?


First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. You don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what body sensations arise as you listen.

Or, even looking at what happens in your body when you have a thought "I should have done ..............." or, "This should / should not have happened................."

Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.


Warm regards,
Rowena

[EMWBerry]

Hi Rowena,
I did this several times throughout the day. It was a little challenging to remember a lie from the past so I stuck with your examples below.

Please report back with what body sensations (not interpretations) you felt. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

When I made a statement that was a known lie, I definitely felt a contraction in the gut area. With the more intense statements like "this should have/have not happened", it was more of a burning sensation in the gut area coupled with heaviness. Withe the truth statements i noticed a releasing or relaxing of the tension. Almost a lightness I would say.

Warm regards,
Lisa

[Noro]

Good morning Lisa,

When I made a statement that was a known lie, I definitely felt a contraction in the gut area. With the more intense statements like "this should have/have not happened", it was more of a burning sensation in the gut area coupled with heaviness. Withe the truth statements i noticed a releasing or relaxing of the tension. Almost a lightness I would say.

Great!

SOUND AND VISUAL FIELDS COMBINED - AS A MEDITATION WITH EYES OPEN
Please answer each question individually from your direct experience.

Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field' as an embodied experience.

Ask yourself:
Where does it feel that the sound is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?
Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?
Without the content of thought overlay, can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?
Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Where does it feel that "you" are?
If the answer is "here", where is 'Here' is there a boundary line between 'Here' and 'There'?
Is there a boundary to "you"?

Also notice any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them, simply body sensations.

Now do the same with the Visual Field.
Sit quietly and look at the visual field. Find an object to focus on.
ask the question:

Where does it feel that the object is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Where is 'here'?
What (in DE) is here? (Without thought content overlay on the visual field).

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?
In the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing''?

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?
Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

Again, notice any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them.


ALTERNATE VISUAL AND HEARING FIELDS AND INCLUDE BODY SENSATIONS
Spend a few minutes with your attention fully in the visual field and then switch attention to the hearing field.
Now allow your attention to flow as it will between the two fields.

Without the content of thought, where are you?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Can a boundary be found to separate "you" from what is appearing? Yes or No?
Can a boundary be found between hearing and seeing? Yes or No?
Can any actual boundary be found between seeing, hearing and body sensations?

Please give a short description of how this landed with you.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[EMWBerry]

Hi Rowena,
I did the first 2 parts of the exercise and just wanted to get back to you on those. I need a little more time with the 3rd one...I will report back shortly. Thank you for your help with this, Rowena!

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?

No boundary, only what is heard.

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

Just sound arising

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

Only what is heard.

Without the content of thought overlay, can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?

I'm not sure I understand this question correctly but no, the hearing and the sound are happening together. Without thought, there is no experience of my ear is here and the sound is over there

Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

No.

Where does it feel that "you" are?

Behind the eyes/head area.

If the answer is "here", where is 'Here' is there a boundary line between 'Here' and 'There'?

There is no definitive boundary between here and there.

Is there a boundary to "you"?

I think I'm associating the sensations in the head area as a type of boundary. Like i must be contained behind or around those sensations.

Where does it feel that the object is?

In front of me.

Where does it feel that "I" am?

Behind the eyes.

If the answer is "here", How is this "known"

Thought says I am here.

Where is 'here'?

Behind the eyes.
What (in DE) is here? (Without thought content overlay on the visual field).
I am struggling with this one a little Here is thought content.

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?

No, this is weird. It's like what is seen comes with the seeing. They are connected or one. Not sure if I'm expelling myself.
I

n the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing''?

No, i cannot find a seer.

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?

Well, I am not able to determine a boundary for the seeing, then no. Without thought saying I'm here, a distance or location cannot be found. This is a little fuzzy.

Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

No, there is just seeing.

[Noro]

Hello Lisa,

Without the content of thought overlay, can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?

I'm not sure I understand this question correctly but no, the hearing and the sound are happening together. Without thought, there is no experience of my ear is here and the sound is over there

Yes!

Where does it feel that "you" are?

Behind the eyes/head area.

It is often felt like that! But we are going to look closer at this.

Is there a boundary to "you"?

I think I'm associating the sensations in the head area as a type of boundary. Like i must be contained behind or around those sensations.

As soon as you say "I think", you are thinking and not in direct experience! Direct experience is:
Simply seeing (colors and shapes)
Simply hearing (sounds without naming)
Simply sensations (without naming)
Simply tasting (without naming)
Simply smelling (without naming)
Simply thinking (without paying attention to the content of the thinking or thoughts.)

So look again at this. Please answer each question separately,


Where exactly are "you"?. Can "you" be separated out from sensations or are they simply sensations with a thought "me" overlaid as an unexplored assumption due to habit?

Is there a "you" to be found in any shape or form? Yes or No?

Is there a boundary to "you"? In other words, where do "you" begin and where do "you" end? Can you find a boundary?

Where is 'here'?

Behind the eyes.
What (in DE) is here? (Without thought content overlay on the visual field).
I am struggling with this one a little Here is thought content.

Yes, exactly, Here is thought content. What remains without the thought?
Spoiler alert: Its ok not to know! This can freak out 'the mind' which likes to know!

Is it OK not to know?
Is it OK to be with sensations of struggling or confusion?

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?

No, this is weird. It's like what is seen comes with the seeing. They are connected or one. Not sure if I'm expelling myself.

Yes, it is like this! :)

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?

Well, I am not able to determine a boundary for the seeing, then no. Without thought saying I'm here, a distance or location cannot be found. This is a little fuzzy.

Yes!

Please play around with this exercise again and answer the questions in blue above and let me know how that last part went.

Warm regards,
Rowena