Liane's Inquiry

[Tessi8899]

question for you

Ok, to remind myself, this is what I understand: Keep an open awareness and stay with the direct experience of each sense.
Hearing is just sound.
Tasting is just flavours.
Sensation is pressure, warmth, cold, tightness, pain, etc.
Smelling is just odours.
Seeing is colours, shapes, light, and shadows.
Thinking is noticing that a thought is happening, without following its story.

Thought can come in before, during and after thought? Correct?

[Noro]

Hello Liane,

Do sounds indicate location?

Yes. I can hear sounds coming from the left, right, or in front of me.

Hearing is just sound (as you wrote below) any designation of location is an interpretation.
Without interpretation of direct experience, and without the word labels: "left, right or in front of me." What remains?
Simply sound or simply hearing.

I understand that this maybe seen as being a bit extreme, because if someone was sitting to your left and called your name, of course, conventionally, you would naturally turn towards them. The body knows! These explorations are in order to help you get a hang of direct experience in order to 'untangle' multi-sensory associations and see what is actually happening.

Does this make sense? Yes, No or Not sure?

How is location known from simply hearing, other than as a thought?

Just from hearing. I can hear the direction a sound is coming from.

Is direction heard or assumed (thought)?
How often do you hear ambient sounds and you cannot give them a precise location?
A sound is heard > thought comes in > dog barking > noisy neighbor's dog > which neighbor?

question for you

Ok, to remind myself, this is what I understand: Keep an open awareness and stay with the direct experience of each sense.
Hearing is just sound.
Tasting is just flavours.
Sensation is pressure, warmth, cold, tightness, pain, etc.
Smelling is just odours.
Seeing is colours, shapes, light, and shadows.
Thinking is noticing that a thought is happening, without following its story.
Thought can come in before, during and after thought? Correct?

Yes, absolutely, thoughts can appear at any time.



SOUND AND VISUAL FIELDS COMBINED - AS A MEDITATION WITH EYES OPEN

Please answer each question. Keep it simple, if a Yes or No answer is available, use that.

Allow yourself to relax and open to the whole 'sound field'.
In your direct experience:

Where does it feel that the sound is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only 'what is heard'?
In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?
Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?
Without the content of thought can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?
Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

Where does it feel that "you" are?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Is there a boundary to "you"?

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them.

Now do the same with the Visual Field.
Sit quietly and look at the visual field. Find an object to focus on.
ask the question:

Where does it feel that object is?
Where does it feel that "I" am?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Where is here, can it be pinpointed precisely or is it nothing other than a thought label?
What (in DE) is here? (Without thought content overlay on the visual field).

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?
In the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing''?

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?
Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

Also include any sensations in the body that might arise. Allow them to be present without interpreting them.

ALTERNATE VISUAL AND HEARING FIELDS AND INCLUDE BODY SENSATIONS
Spend a few minutes with your attention fully in the visual field and then switch attention to the hearing field.
Now allow your attention to flow as it will between the two fields.

Without the content of thought, where are you?
If the answer is "here", How is this "known"
Can a boundary be found to separate "you" from what is appearing ?
Without thought, in direct experience, can an actual boundary be found between seeing, hearing and body sensations?

Please give a short description of how this landed with you.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Tessi8899]

Does this make sense? Yes, No or Not sure?

YES

How is location known from simply hearing, other than as a thought?

Just from hearing.

Is direction heard or assumed (thought)?

Direction is assumed.

How often do you hear ambient sounds and you cannot give them a precise location?

often

Where does it feel that the sound is?

It depends on the sound. Some seem nearby, others farther away

Where does it feel that "I am?

In and around my body.

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between hearing and what is heard, or is there only what is heard'?

Only what is heard

In 'hearing' can anything be found other than 'sounds arising'?

no

Can a hearer be found? Or is there only 'what is heard'?

just what is heard

Without the content of thought can a location or distance be known from simply hearing?

no

Can an independent hearer be found separate from 'what is heard'?

No

Where does it feel that "you" are?

In and around my body

Is there a boundary to "you"?

NO

Where does it feel that the object is?

Over there.

Where does it feel that “I” am?

in and around my body.

If the answer is “here,” how is this known?

By thought.

Where is here, can it be pinpointed precisely or is it nothing other than a thought label?

Yes,
It’s a thought label

What (in DE) is here?

shapes, sounds, and bodily sensations.

Is there a boundary that can be found anywhere between an apparent see-er and what is seen, or is there only 'seeing'?

Only seeing

In the visual field can anything be found other than 'seeing

no

Without the content of thought, can any location or distance be found from simply seeing?

no

Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing'?

no

How often do you hear ambient sounds and you cannot give them a precise location?

Often.

Where does it feel that 'you' are?

from thoughts about the body.

Can an independent see-er be found separate from seeing?

No

[Tessi8899]

Hi Rowena,
I'm finding these exercises very difficult, and I'm feeling quite discouraged with the process. I often dont understand what the questions are asking, and I spend a lot of time trying to figure them out .
It's becoming more of an intellectual struggle than a direct experience. Sometimes I feel like I'm just answering everything from the perspective of a separate self, which is the very thing we're investigating.
I don't want to give up on the inquiry, but I'm finding this approach frustrating rather than enjoyable. Im wondering if there's a simpler, more natural way for me to explore this.

[Noro]

Hello Liane,

I'm finding these exercises very difficult, and I'm feeling quite discouraged with the process. I often dont understand what the questions are asking, and I spend a lot of time trying to figure them out .
It's becoming more of an intellectual struggle than a direct experience. Sometimes I feel like I'm just answering everything from the perspective of a separate self, which is the very thing we're investigating.

I don't want to give up on the inquiry, but I'm finding this approach frustrating rather than enjoyable. Im wondering if there's a simpler, more natural way for me to explore this.

Thanks for letting me know, and I understand what you are saying Liane, I realize that with that last exercise there were a lot of repetitive questions, perhaps too many for it to be an active contemplation of direct experience. All the exercises should be done from a calm and relaxed place.

The direct experience approach is a tool to help deconstruct conventional experiencing which is a multi-sensory confusion, and so all the questions are pointing to how the raw sensing from each sense field is as it is, prior to any labels. And all labels are conceptual add-ons. For example we learned to pick out and separate objects and sounds. If we hadn't learned there would simply be a full on tapestry of colors and a bathing in sound without identifying any separate 'things'.

Curiosity is the way to go, and there is also an opportunity to investigate here, if you would be willing to take a look.

I don't want to give up on the inquiry, but I'm finding this approach frustrating rather than enjoyable. Im wondering if there's a simpler, more natural way for me to explore this.

You describe this approach frustrating. Let's look into how the word "frustrating" appears into experience.
"Frustrating" is simply a thought label attached to a felt body sensation.

Are you able to connect to the FEELING of frustration? If so:

Can you describe how "frustration" feels in the body, and where it is located?

Can you now drop the label "frustration" and simply place all your attention on the associated body sensations. Allow them to be fully experienced. Can you describe where they are located and how they feel?

Would you agree that when attention is placed on body sensations there are "Simply sensations happening"?

If you stay with the sensations, do they remain static, or do they move around and slowly dissolve?

Is there actual "frustration" be found or simply sensations and a thought?

Please let me know how you get on.


I hope this last exploration will feel more natural to you.


Warm regards,
Rowena

[Tessi8899]

Hi Rowena,
I wanted to explain a little more about what would help me with the inquiry.
Even when I'm feeling physically well, I find some of the questions difficult and frustrating to follow. I really need things broken down into very simple, short, direct questions, preferably one at a time.
Sometimes several questions seem to ask the same thing in slightly different ways, and I end up wondering whether I'm missing something.

For example, in your latest exercise, you ask:

Can you describe how 'frustration' feels in the body, and where it is located?
Then, in the next question:

Can you describe where they are located and how they feel?

To me, those sound like the same question.

It would also help enormously if you could number the questions 1, 2, 3, etc., so I can easily follow them and answer each one.
I appreciate your guidance, and I don't want to give up on the inquiry. I just need a much simpler, more straightforward approach so I can focus on the experience rather than trying to figure out what the questions mean.


Here are my answers to the latest exercise.

1. Can you describe how "frustration" feels in the body, and where it is located?

Frustration feels like tightness in my stomach, particularly around the solar plexus, and some tightness in my neck. If I'm already experiencing physical discomfort, frustration seems to intensify those sensations.

2.Can you now drop the label "frustration" and simply place all your attention on the associated body sensations. Allow them to be fully experienced. Can you describe where they are located and how they feel?

Yes, I can drop the label "frustration" and simply allow the sensations to be as they are, without making a story out of them. When I do that, it seems to help a little.

3. Would you agree that when attention is placed on body sensations there are "Simply sensations happening?

Yes, they are sensations happening, but they're often accompanied by many thoughts of fear, dread, worry, and concern. There's a whole narrative that goes along with them. I can recognize the sensations themselves, but the thoughts can be very strong.

4. If you stay with the sensations, do they remain static, or do they move around and slowly dissolve?

It depends on the day. Sometimes the sensations remain fairly static, and sometimes they gradually ease or dissolve. They don't necessarily move around, and it can take an hour or longer for them to subside.

5. Is there actual "frustration" be found or simply sensations and a thought?

I can notice physical sensations and many different thoughts associated with what I call frustration. It's not just one thought, but often a whole series of thoughts.

[Noro]

Hello Liane,

I will number the questions and try to make them simpler. Sometimes they are repetitive..... sorry about that, the questions get made up as I read the text and so refer directly to that text. Regarding the new exercise below, please refer to the exercise in your reply as I will be numbering the questions from 1. onwards for each exercise.

2.Can you now drop the label "frustration" and simply place all your attention on the associated body sensations. Allow them to be fully experienced. Can you describe where they are located and how they feel?

Yes, I can drop the label "frustration" and simply allow the sensations to be as they are, without making a story out of them. When I do that, it seems to help a little.

Good, this really is the way to go.

3. Would you agree that when attention is placed on body sensations there are "Simply sensations happening?
Yes, they are sensations happening, but they're often accompanied by many thoughts of fear, dread, worry, and concern.

There's a whole narrative that goes along with them. I can recognize the sensations themselves, but the thoughts can be very strong.

1. In DE a thought is simply a thought arising. When you say "Thoughts can be very strong."
Can you see that this is a thought? It is really important to have clarity with this.

2. Is it possible in DE for thoughts to be strong, weak, empty, full? Conventional language can be very sloppy and imprecise.

3. Perhaps the reference to strong thoughts is actually referring to strong feelings, but even then one would have to ask:
What is the direct experience of strong feelings? Please say more what strong feelings are actually pointing to in your DIRECT EXPERIENCE?


OBSERVING THOUGHTS
The Direct experience of thought is very important in the seeing through of the self illusion. As always take your time to get comfortable and relaxed before beginning this meditation. Take it slowly and trying not to think about the answer, just let it come with what you experience directly. If you like, it can be helpful to get a piece of paper and write as it comes; from the flow of questioning and looking, clarity comes. Each question can be a meditation in itself.

Sit quietly for about 15 minutes and notice any thoughts arising.
Just let them appear as and when they appear. Try your best to not pay attention to the content of thoughts and just notice how they appear without you doing anything at all. Please answer honestly from your direct experience and not conceptually. Do not try and guess if you don't know the answer. Use simple Yes or No answers where applicable.

1. Where are thoughts coming from and going to?

2. Is it possible to track the thoughts as they come and go? Yes or No?

3. Did you do anything to make a particular thought or thoughts appear?

4. Could you have done anything to make a different thought appear at that exact moment instead? Yes or No?)

5. Can you predict your next thought? Y/N?

6. Can you select from a range of thoughts to have only pleasant thoughts? Y/N?

7. Can you choose not to have painful, negative, or fearful thoughts? Y/N?

8. Can you pick and choose any kind of thought? Y/N?

9. Is it possible to prevent a thought from appearing? Y/N?

10. What can a thought do i.e. does a thought have agency? Y/N?

11. Can a thought think another thought? Y/N?

12. Does the thought "I" refer to an actual independent separate thinker?


Please answer ALL the questions. Take your time with this.
Look as many times as it is possible during the day even for a few seconds.


Warm regards,
Rowena