good place

[daisyrain]

doubt is the thought B!
Thought B is (very often) doubt

Just writing this, goosebumps

[daisyrain]

It frequently feels like being on a rollercoaster and noticing the wagon is slowly rolling toward an edge.

Drop in the stomach, the strange rushing sensation in the legs. It’s kind of a good description of the sensation, that rollercoaster example

[graceabounds]

And if doubt is seen to be just another thought, what then?

Can you find the producer of it?

[daisyrain]

And if doubt is seen to be just another thought, what then?

well, "I" can see a lot of thoughts keeping track of what "I" am doing.
For example that sentence right there is such a thought.
Things are arising and that thought comes and narrates what i am doing ("I am doing seeing thoughts")

Can you find the producer of it?

Lot's of thoughts come saying "I constantly try to remember what I am actually looking for".

it helps to say "let's assume there is a producer", oh, yeah, in that case I know where it would be! :)
Looking there.
(bodily intense, like stretching for the nervous system)

okay, besides thoughts arising, there is clarity.
thoughts are sort of "trying to fight this out".
even looking for a producer can assume a producer to the extend it's "almost there".
When not.. in a way when not looking for producer, there's just this sort of clarity.

That is not really an answer, and still, no producer.
In a way it couldn't be an answer, that would require a question. That question would be that search-full looking.

No Question, no answer, no producer.

that doubt pattern of being unconvinced is coming up.
It's really quite a bodily confrontation, seeing it as thought.
It's grasping for a sort of ownership for that sentence about "no question, no looker". It wants to "own" that insight and can't.

[graceabounds]

Very good.

It's really quite a bodily confrontation, seeing it as thought.

What happens in the body when doubt appears?

Does doubter have a supposed location just as ‘producer’ seemed to?

No thought, no owner, no doubter?

[daisyrain]

What happens in the body when doubt appears?

There's tension arising.
in a way, I recall thinking that this is doubt+resistance to doubt.
But when, uhm, seeing them both as the very same thing, it's so clean, it so clear.

Seeing that problem+resistance to problem are the very same thing, it's like there's nothing left to do.


Going of the script for a moment.
There was a bit of grieving in that "nothing left to do", as that is sort of the final straw being lost of "this being my path to become extraodinary and special". dear god, thanks for that grief.
but also, huh? A rushing sensation here, looking and seeknig out that grief again. Like it's addicted to the promise that this is furthering enlightenment etc. pp.

in the body this is felt as intense energy. Quite a confrontation for the nervous system.

Does doubter have a supposed location just as ‘producer’ seemed to?

no, not at all. it's like that's not even a question.

No thought, no owner, no doubter?

with doubt arising, doubt arises.
with no doubt arising, surprisingly, no doubt.


about the doubter...
well, seeking can employed and it does create uncertainty.

that (seeking) is felt around the chest, the neck, jaw, lips.

Right, mind, "can be employed" is a stretch of words.

[graceabounds]

So doubt/resistance is a lie in the body (tension)?

Is intense energy a confrontation? Are there other ways to describe it?

that (seeking) is felt around the chest, the neck, jaw, lips.

How are these sensations known to be seeking?
Following just the sensations without the story, where do they lead?

Does another sensation promise awakening or enlightenment or progress?


Who grieves being special? Does griever=grieved? And following that all the way down is it simply a sensation + ‘I’ story added afterward?

[daisyrain]

So doubt/resistance is a lie in the body (tension)?

not a lie themselves, but there's an attitude toward them, that seems can be described as a lie.
They can be just in the body, and then nothing is to do. But, maybe it has more to do with believing the thing to be doubt + resistance / "two things at war", that is so wrong.

Is intense energy a confrontation? Are there other ways to describe it?

It is a little like stretching for the nervous system. I think it's working out the nervous system.

that (seeking) is felt around the chest, the neck, jaw, lips.

How are these sensations known to be seeking?

About doubt: Like, right now the doubt comes: Oh, but what if I can't find that sensation on the spot?
and leaving that without resistance, it doesn't really become a lie (or anything)

so.
Good question, Becc.
How is it known to be seeking?
it does feel like it's holding a frantic attitude.
Or a frantic attitude is what comes as a habit?
It feels like it's a movement, a direction.
Which is to say, it points somewhere, rather than nowhere (which would be here).
but how is that known?
it might be a story arising on top, okay.

Following just the sensations without the story, where do they lead?

sitting here with this sensation, it just travels through the body. Stopping at some junctions, here and there.

Does another sensation promise awakening or enlightenment or progress?

There's a thought about a moment "I had today, at night, where everything was clear".
There is a thought/attitute like: "Hm... shouldn't we maybe follow that track?"
And not much care otherwise.

Another thought comes that "I am very about all these thoughts about being enlightened and having authority etc. pp. "
yeah, these happen.

so, does a sensation promise awakening _right now_?
I guess for a moment there is a trace. feeling that trace it's "promise" is gone.

Who grieves being special? Does griever=grieved? And following that all the way down is it simply a sensation + ‘I’ story added afterward?

it's getting quiet here (in a way) asking this.
not much to write beyond that.

[graceabounds]

Who grieves being special? Does griever=grieved? And following that all the way down is it simply a sensation + ‘I’ story added afterward?

it's getting quiet here (in a way) asking this.
not much to write beyond that.

Good.
So are you the thinker of thoughts?

There's a thought about a moment "I had today, at night, where everything was clear".
There is a thought/attitute like: "Hm... shouldn't we maybe follow that track?"
And not much care otherwise

.

How would that track be followed? By thinking about it or looking again now?
Does the clarity remain in the background?

[daisyrain]

Good.
So are you the thinker of thoughts?

there's a believe that I can't possibly be able to really see that. Fun, surprising (o.o) okay!
the usual chatter about good enough, yadayadayada.


the whole body is surprised about the question.

hmmmmm sort of not.

how can the thought "but what am I then?" make sense, if it's not me, that is the thinker? (that thought occured and felt interesting)

it feels more like I am floating through thought or something like that.
as if it there's an "I" that has a relationship (watcher) to thought. Now, that can't be it, so let's see "for myself" :)

yeah, that image is a thought.

So, is there an "I" something is in relation to?

not

hm

How would that track be followed? By thinking about it or looking again now?
Does the clarity remain in the background?

hm. it's not nothing that is in the background.
not sure if it's helpful either 😄

looking again happens to various degrees, continuesly, through the day.

[graceabounds]

Let's try a slightly different angle.

Can you find a thinker separate from the thought itself?

[daisyrain]

Can you find a thinker separate from the thought itself?

it "feels" like the opposite is true.
With every thought arising there is a certain quality to that thought, that feels like the one thing that could be a thinker.

is it useful to take "it feels like this, that" as an answer?

that quality is a warmth. (some other day I might have called it "Body"). Relaxation. a rigidity. (that which feels rigid is chatty and can be listened to)

it protests a lot, talks and describes who I am, what I am doing, how I feel. What I want and don't want
("I want to see through this rigidity").

Feeling it a sensation perceived as "vulnerable" came.
opens. works through the body (good day mr left leg, nice to hear from you)

okay, starting over :)

Can you find a thinker separate from the thought itself?

diving into this thinker sensation.

noticing distraction.

woops, scary sensation happening.

(i think thinker sensation has changed)

words come, chatter about thinker sensation.

I don't think I could find a thinker _separate_ of thought at all.

[graceabounds]

that quality is a warmth. (some other day I might have called it "Body"). Relaxation. a rigidity. (that which feels rigid is chatty and can be listened to)

it protests a lot, talks and describes who I am, what I am doing, how I feel. What I want and don't want
("I want to see through this rigidity").

A really good example here of sensation. And then thought. :)

I don't think I could find a thinker _separate_ of thought at all.

And what about an observer separate from what is observed?

[daisyrain]

I don't think I could find a thinker _separate_ of thought at all.

And what about an observer separate from what is observed?

excitement about the question comes. (that which is labeled excitement + interpretation comes)

it's a question, alright. As opposed to an answer coming the question is really felt. :)


So, there's not really an answer, but there is "being puzzled" with no observer found.

[graceabounds]

Look again today. Is there anyone to own puzzlement?
Any observer, witness or thinker separate from what is happening?