Buddhist that is coming to their senses.

[Tetsuo]

Hi Rali,

Can the thing called “attention”/”focus” be found?

Attention can’t be found as a separately existing thing. There is content present within experience (i.e. sounds, sensations, and thoughts). At one point, I was more aware of my breathing. Then, my attention moved to sounds that could be heard. ‘I’ could decide to keep attending to the breath. However, that intention to do so would be a thought. Attending to the breath = sensations + thought. After a while, my nose started to itch, so I became aware of that sensation. Then, my hand moved to scratch my nose.

Does attention have a shape, location, or boundary?

No.

Can you see anything moving from one image to another, or from one thought to another?\Or is one image simply appearing, then another image is simply appearing, and thought says, “Attention moved from this image to that image”?
Can you choose what will be noticed next?

It is simply one thing that I am aware of (for instance, the heat generated by the fan), the another thing (sensation of my back against the chair), then another thing (sound of the fan), etc. So, nothing separate from experience could be found. But intention as thought could be observed.

What decides which one becomes clear? Is there an entity moving it? Do you move it? Can you decide what it will land on next? Or does a sound, sensation, image, or thought simply become prominent, and afterward thought says, “attention moved there”?

It’s exactly like you said – something within experience just becomes prominent. There is no entity that is deciding to move attention from one thing to another.

Is this something you control? Is there anything more than sensation + thought that says “I’m doing this”?

I can’t find a controller. If my attention moves to something else, I will only know that it will move and what it will move to once it has happened. There is the sensation of the breath. After a while, something else within experience starts to grow in prominence and the breath simultaneously becomes subtler (for instance, it could be a feeling of grogginess). The thought “I should be paying attention to the breath” then arises, after which, the sensation of the breath grows in prominence again.

What is looking/noticing/attention made of? There is what IS happening and the description of it. So is there separate looking apart from the description?

There is looking and then thought explaining what is being looked at/what is occurring.

Was there a controller choosing the sequence?
Could the next focus be known before it happened?

No, there wasn’t a controller that was choosing the sequence. The next focus became known only when it happened.

But are three separate things actually found?

Thought turns them into three separate things when it labels them, but there are not three separate things that can be found.

At this moment, can a boundary be found where seeing ends and sensation begins?

No, they don’t have boundaries that could be impinged upon.

Can a boundary be found where sensation ends and thought begins?

No.

Or are those divisions added afterward by thought for the sake of describing what happened?

They are divisions that are added by thought to describe experience.

If there are no separate things prior to thought labelling them, is there really a focus moving from one separate thing to another? Or one thing replacing another? Or does what is happening simply vary in intensity or prominence, and thought describes those peaks afterwards as: “attention moved to the sound”/ “attention shifted to the sensation” / “now there is a thought”

It is experience shifting in terms of prominence and intensity. With that said, as I look at the object on my desk in front of me (as a way of consider attention), I can look at my water bottle, and then a non-verbal thought will arise that expresses “I should look at the mug”. Then, I look at the mug instead, and to another object accordingly, and so on.

Funnily, as I was doing this, an itch arose, and then that is what automatically became prominent.

What is actually found before the labels arrive?

...waving hands, shrugging shoulders...nothing can be said about it because there is no distance. It’s so immediate.
And most importantly…

What happens with the observer? Can an observer of attention be found?

Experience can be found but an observer of it cannot.

Many thanks and kind regards,
Tetsuo

[poppyseed]

Hi Tetsuo,
Beautiful. This is very clear. You looked for attention as a thing, for something moving attention, for a controller choosing what becomes prominent, for an observer of experience — all of these couldn’t be found. All that was found was:

...waving hands, shrugging shoulders...nothing can be said about it because there is no distance. It’s so immediate.

Yes. Attention is just a description (the icons on the desktop) of the most prominent “part” of just THIS, the lava wax.
Now let’s bring this back to the other thing you wanted to investigate: “this is not enough” / “am I getting it?” / “will it last?” / “do I need to go deeper?”. When the doubt “I don’t get it” appears:
Did you choose that doubt/that thought?
Did you decide for it to appear?
Did “you” come up with it? Or did doubt simply appear, in exactly the same way that other thoughts appear?
And if it simply appears, in what sense is it “your” doubt or about “you”?
Can an owner of the doubt actually be found?
Now look at what the doubt claims.
What exactly is missing? Not what thought says is missing. What is actually absent from present experience?
Can a missing “something” be found?
Can the one who supposedly doesn’t get it be found?
There is seeing, hearing, tasting, feeling, smelling, thinking (just THIS) with changing prominence. And no observer, controller, thinker, chooser, or centre can be found.
So what would “getting it” add to this?
What are you expecting to happen?
A particular feeling? Certainty? A permanent bliss? A dramatic shift / fireworks/ bells? A sense of completion? Some unmistakable internal confirmation?
Look closely at that expectation.
Did you choose that expectation?
Did you create the standard by which this moment is being judged as “not enough”?
Or did that thought also simply appear?

will it last?

What is the “it” that is supposed to last? There is always just this. Thoughts about “it” might change but this is always just that – whatever is happening, indescribable (no words or labels can ever capture it but it can be experienced) and indivisible (without the labels)
Is the content of thoughts in your control?
The house of suffering is built on unfulfilled expectations, unmet wants and desires. Wanting “more” is the flip side of lacking “something”. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. But have a look at this differently - wanting more is just that—wanting (thoughts about more). Spontaneous actions are happening, and so is the thought story (self-organising around the experience). And I underlie self-organising as this is not in your control, it just happens. I’ve basically introduced a virus thought (LOOK!) that causes all thoughts to be reorganised around the experience, yn stead of more stories :) Noticing of DE happens (commnetary with DE labels) or noticing of thought content happens (thoughts stories, fairy tales) – all by itself. It is just THIS, and THIS could be a thought content ABOUT wanting more, deepening the experience, fireworks and trumpets, the whole shebang :)
Can you find a state called awakening that began at some point and now needs to continue into the future?
Or is there only a thought, now, imagining a future in which something might be lost?
Can the future be found anywhere except as thought NOW? (we can look at time and memories if you want)

do I need to go deeper?

Who would go deeper?
Where would they go?
Deeper into what?
Can any actual distance between “where you are now” and “awakening” be found?
Or is that distance itself thought?
You’ve repeatedly looked and found no separate self. Then doubt appears - “Yes, but maybe I haven’t really seen it.”
Does that thought reveal a hidden self? Or is it simply another thought appearing, unchosen and ownerless?
Don’t try to remove the doubt. Let it appear. Then look:
Did I make this doubt? Is this doubt/expectations mine? (Or are they the product of spiritual "knowledge"?)
Does doubt contain a doubter?
And if there were no expectation that awakening should feel different from this, is anything actually missing?
Look now.
Love
Rali

[Tetsuo]

Hi Rali,

I am sorry for the belated response.

Did you choose that doubt/that thought?

No.

Did you decide for it to appear?

No, it just does.

Did “you” come up with it? Or did doubt simply appear, in exactly the same way that other thoughts appear?

It appears in the same way that other thoughts do. It isn't different in nature.

And if it simply appears, in what sense is it “your” doubt or about “you”?

It is doubt, but it is not 'my doubt' or doubt about 'me'.

Can an owner of the doubt actually be found?

No, only thoughts and doubtful thoughts can be found, as well as the beliefs corresponding to those thoughts.

What exactly is missing? Not what thought says is missing. What is actually absent from present experience?

Nothing is missing from experience. Nothing could be.

Can a missing “something” be found?

No

Can the one who supposedly doesn’t get it be found?

Only as thought.

So what would “getting it” add to this?

‘Getting it’ wouldn’t add anything to the content itself.

What are you expecting to happen?

I am expecting for the belief that there is a separately existing self to be conclusively seen as being false and as a consequence, for the sense that “I as this doer who is taking actions, identified with though, and exercising choice” to subside.

A particular feeling? Certainty? A permanent bliss? A dramatic shift / fireworks/ bells? A sense of completion? Some unmistakable internal confirmation?

Something like a conclusive 'a-ha moment'.

Did you choose that expectation?
Did you create the standard by which this moment is being judged as “not enough”?

No, I didn’t choose or create those standards and expectations. They arise due to preconceived ideas and thoughts be referenced and believed in.

What is the “it” that is supposed to last?

I think the surprise/confusion is that ‘it’ seems like something that can’t be held onto/grasped/appropriated, so there is the doubtful thought ‘that can’t be it, it can’t be that simple.’

Is the content of thoughts in your control?

No, it isn't. Because the very thing that I would point to as evidence in support of the claim that I can control the content of thought, would itself be more thought.

Can you find a state called awakening that began at some point and now needs to continue into the future?
Or is there only a thought, now, imagining a future in which something might be lost?
Can the future be found anywhere except as thought NOW?

No, because there can only ever be what is experienced. The future only exists on the level of thought, as concept.

Who would go deeper?
Where would they go?
Deeper into what?

So, what appears is not a who; what appears is thought (for instance). Therefore, there isn't a who that could go deeper into something. There is just this, so there is no where that that could go to.

Can any actual distance between “where you are now” and “awakening” be found?
Or is that distance itself thought?

Not in direct experience. Yes, the notion of distance is based in thought/belief.

Did I make this doubt? Is this doubt/expectations mine? (Or are they the product of spiritual "knowledge"?)

They arose because of the ideas that I have accumulated regarding the matter. but I didn't make it.

Does doubt contain a doubter?

No, it isn't any different from any other belief or thought in that sense. But it isn't without its causes, as eluded to above.

And if there were no expectation that awakening should feel different from this, is anything actually missing?

Nothing is missing because nothing can ever be added or taken away.

Thank you, Rali. I hope you're doing well!

Kind regards,
Tetsuo

[poppyseed]

Hi Tetsuo,
Beautiful. This is very clear. Especially these:

It is doubt, but it is not 'my doubt' or doubt about 'me'.

Nothing is missing from experience. Nothing could be.

there isn't a who that could go deeper into something.

Nothing is missing because nothing can ever be added or taken away.

And this:

I am expecting for the belief that there is a separately existing self to be conclusively seen as being false

Have a look at that very carefully.
Hasn’t that already been looked at? When you look for a separate self, what is found?
Body — sensations, images, labels.
Thought — thoughts appearing, but no thinker.
Attention — changing prominence, but no one moving it.
Choice — thoughts, preferences, actions, but no chooser.
Control — no controller found.
Doubt — doubtful thoughts, but no doubter.
So what exactly would “conclusively” add? Would it add new evidence? Would it add a special feeling? Would it add a thought saying, “Yes, now this is definitely it”?
And if that thought appeared, would that finally prove anything? Or would it simply be another thought?
You also wrote:

that can’t be it, it can’t be that simple.

Why not? What if the expectation of an “a-ha moment” is the only thing saying this cannot already be obvious?
Does seeing that there is no separate self have to feel dramatic?
Or can it be completely ordinary?
Watch this, please:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

So let’s check this directly now.
Is there a separate entity — “self”, “me”, “I”, “Tetsuo” — anywhere, in any way, shape or form?
Was there ever?

Let's review where we are at with the following questions.
What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?
Is seeking still going on?
Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?
Can you say with a big fat YES, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

Love
Rali

[Tetsuo]

Hi Rali,

Hasn’t that already been looked at? When you look for a separate self, what is found?

When I look for a separate self, I find sights, sounds, smells, flavours, tactile sensations, and thoughts of various kinds.

So what exactly would “conclusively” add? Would it add new evidence? Would it add a special feeling? Would it add a thought saying, “Yes, now this is definitely it”?
And if that thought appeared, would that finally prove anything? Or would it simply be another thought?

That would be another thought haha. I was under the impression that it would be a eureka moment where you suddenly ‘get it’. However, our conversation has resulted in me questioning that notion. It seems more like ‘getting it’ than ‘I’ve got it’, because there is nothing to land on.

Does seeing that there is no separate self have to feel dramatic?

No.

Watch this, please:
https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

That was clarifying.

Is there a separate entity?

I can’t find one.

What has changed and what hasn’t in normal everyday living. What changes? What stays the same?
What is the biggest difference from before starting this conversation?

I used to regard the voice in my head as something that I was doing. I can see more clearly now that, that isn’t something I can claim responsibility for. There are periods during which identity comes online with greater conviction and I still get lost in that on occasion. However, I can more readily deconstruct experience to appreciate it as a combination of thoughts, sensations, and so on. That process of ‘remembering’ seems more intuitive. Assumptions seem less convincing, and there is a sense of ‘not knowing’ and things just happening. Seeking is still present, as well as moments of doubt. In terms of lived experience, much remains the same.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

There is nothing in particular that comes to mind.

Can you say with a big fat yes, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

don’t think so, no. With that said, I would characterise what’s becoming clearer as ‘self’ isn’t a thing, there are just processes and experience.

Thank you very much and kind regards,
Tetsuo

[poppyseed]

Hi Tetsuo
Thank you. No problem at all. This is the bit I’d like to stay with:

Can you say with a big fat yes, it is clear what the illusion of a separate self is?

don’t think so, no.

Good. I don’t want to talk you into a “yes”. If it isn’t clear, it isn’t clear.
You also said:

self isn’t a thing, there are just processes and experience.

Let’s be careful even there. “Processes” is already an explanation.
In direct experience, can a process actually be found? Or is “process” another label describing what appears to happen?
You’ve repeatedly said:

I can’t find a separate self.

What would have to happen for “I can’t find one” to become “there isn’t one”?

Look now.
Is there an actual self somewhere that is simply hidden very well? If so, where could it be?
What remains unexamined that could possibly be this separate entity?
Body? You looked.
Thought? You looked.
The thinker? You looked.
The observer? You looked.
The centre? You looked.
Attention? You looked.
Choice and control? You looked.
Intention? You looked.
Doubt? You looked.

Is there any confusion at all or anything you would like to address?

There is nothing in particular that comes to mind.

So what are you still seeking and hoping to find then?
When the thought “Maybe it’s still there but I just haven’t found it” appears — what does that thought point to? Anything actual? Or only the possibility, imagined in thought, that something might have been overlooked?
Are you expecting that seeing no self will mean no mre difficult sensations or thoughts, constant bliss and happiness?
The house of suffering is built on unfulfilled expectations, unmet wants and desires. Wanting “more” is the flip side of lacking “something”. Wanting is a sign that something is incomplete, or missing. But have a look at this differently - wanting more is just that—wanting. Spontaneous actions are happening, and so is the thought story (self-organising around the experience). Noticing of DE happens or noticing of thought content happens – all by itself. It is just THIS, and THIS could be a thought content ABOUT wanting more, deepening the experience, fireworks and trumpets, the whole shebang :)

Now this is even more interesting:

There are periods during which identity comes online with greater conviction and I still get lost in that on occasion.

Excellent. Bring one of those moments here.
What exactly “comes online”?
Next time it happens — or use a recent example if it is still vivid — don’t call it “identity”. Look underneath that word.
What is actually present? Sensations? Contraction? Thoughts about “me”? Mental images? A story about what happened, what should happen, what somebody thinks of you?
Can an entity called “identity” actually be found?
And when you are “lost in it”, is there actually someone who has become lost?
Or are there simply thoughts being believed without their nature being noticed?
Does the appearance of selfing prove the existence of a self?
Take something simple. A thought arises: “I shouldn’t have said that.” Where is the “I”?
A strong bodily contraction appears. Does the contraction contain a person? Or is the sense of a person constructed through the thoughts accompanying it?

Next time you watch a movie, notice how you get sucked into the story; how emotions come up and judgements appear. Then all of a sudden, there is like a flip back to the room - as if focus zooms out. Observe how it happens. At which point is there a decision to snap out? Is there one that makes that decision or does it simply happen, effortlessly? Is it different from being sucked into mind movies/ getting lost in thought? If there is nobody to believe, is ”believing in the story” actually happening or is it a story about “believing in the story” (more thought content)?
It is just the sequencing of thoughts that creates the illusion of a separate I/Tetsuo, like the frames of a movie, where rapid series of still images create the illusion of movement. When frame rate slows down all the illusion of movement is lost. However, there is a big diggerence between an illusion and a delusion. Illusion is when something can be seen as something else, but the truth of what is real is known. Delusion is when the illusion is believed to be true. When you recognize that you are being deluded it is illusion. Seeing through the illusion of “I” doesn’t mean you will lose the “I” and with it your whole identity and all concepts. The “I” doesn’t exist, not even now as you are reading these lines, not yesterday or 20years ago. If there really is no inherent self, how would the experience be different from what already is? I am sorry to disappoint, but you will never end up in a permanently altered state, a permanent high. It is always, “And now chop wood and carry water”.

So look: what is it? What is it that is currently identified with thoughts?
What is it that is standing apart from thought and has the ability to disregard them?
What do thoughts happen to?
Is there someone outside of thoughts, being identified with them?
Where is the mysterious, unknown, outside entity?
Thoughts are always out of step with reality, and they obstruct the clear seeing of how things actually are. Reality is very simple. Once you can see this, you will stop endlessly frustrating yourself by trying to figure out/seeking how things are.
Just look, what is it that is separate from what is (just THIS), and trying to figure out how things are?
Is there a self or me here, who is separate and isolated from what is, from reality, and thus is in need to understand reality? To find and be sure there is no self??
Instead of trying to understand, look at the sensation/feeling that comes before the doubt. That feeling is being avoided by going into thinking and trying to understand this. Feel and sit with that feeling instead. Feel bad. Feel like a doer. Feel the trying to get it. Feel the confusion. And feel everything else that is beneath that - stuff like despair, hopelessness, frustration, anger, etc.
Is there anything else to doubt than just a thought saying "I'm not sure... I doubt this and that"?

And now look at your phrase:

‘getting it’ rather than ‘I’ve got it’, because there is nothing to land on.

Yes. So is there actually something called “awakening” for somebody to possess?
Can “I’ve got it” ever be anything other than another thought claiming an experience?
Maybe the punchline that still seems missing is the expectation that there should be a punchline. But don’t believe that either. Look.
Right now:
Is there an actual separate Tetsuo? Not “can I find one?” Is one there?
And when the answer isn’t supplied by thought, what is left that could answer?
Stay with this until the difference between “I haven't found it” and “there is nothing there except the story of it” becomes completely clear — whichever way it turns out.
Love
Rali