it is what it is but what is it

[gnomon]

thanks again for your time on this, Stacy. much appreciated.

it's clear to me that 'thing-ness' is a layer that can turn on and off, and can be wildly wrong, and I've observed the label on a thing change in realtime often :)

below are my answers:

When you look at the word GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

I see red, then very shortly after the word resolves (the idea of green gets activated in various sense modalities in thought)

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

visual experience is the colour red, yeah. thoughts stirred up linguistically have colour experiences in them but they're not actual visual experiences

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

oh my no. most labels are infinitely sub-divisible and also able to be subsumed into larger parts indefinitely (my arm, my whole body, a crowded room, a riot might all apply to 'me' somehow at any point)

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

yes there's the green idea complex being activated when no green is present

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

the latter

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

No

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

No effect whatsoever :)


I've been thinking intermittently about how reading works with the interaction of visual perception, a lot of fairly abstract shape, word, structure, etc recognition processes and then thoughts are produced out of each of those processes independently (like I see a word and know what it means, but I also know what it means in this sentence and what the sentence means so far, and so on).

This all happens with basically no lag or perceptible cost. I've been trying to watch the details but reading is an awesome way to distract yourself with a bombardment of potentially sticky ideas and spun-off scenarios.

[gnomon]

it's clear to me

The problem with the linguistic mode is that it's got a subject and object built in. it's very difficult to engage with it without getting stuck in the tarpit.

currently language is mostly triggering idea chains for a talk I'm giving in a few weeks, which is very grabby for me right now.
I guess the argument is that if we need a self to comprehend/produce text (don't think so, but it's the premise of the thought) then that self has more important text production work to be attending to, so let's daydream about that.

This is a very sticky loop (or recurrence, anyway) for me at the moment, though I'm getting better about dropping it when I'm not thinking about it on purpose. Or noticing that I'm monologuing internally and having the option to stop, anyway.

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

Your answers to the Red/Green pointer are correct.

I've been thinking

I'd like to say "Don't.," but you can't usually turn it off. You can, however, ignore it & question it until you no longer believe your thoughts.

https://youtu.be/wyNwhK2Ur1c?si=TZwuFEst-7Hsadpu

All we do here us LOOK. Yes, with your eyes.

Thinking is useless for this process. You're very good at thinking, but it won't help you to see there's no separate "self." You'll just run around in circles.

You correctly saw that without "I" statements are truer. But let's take a look at this, anyway.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[gnomon]

What is found?

my chest, stomach, neck and shoulders all contract slightly around my throat.

Do you see that?

yes. It's the same (ish) feeling as writing down "I am sitting" earlier or saying "I'm a little teapot" now.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Keep paying attention to these truth & lie Sensations.

Next is the only pointer Ilona gave me when I was guided here. i practiced this for about 3 months. I call it:

ButtChair

Please LOOK for any place where your butt ends & the chair begins.

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?


It is simple direct & nonverbal. Just LOOK.

Then write what is true.

Loving

[gnomon]

Is there any clear dividing line between them? Or only the Sensation with no clear division?

no, there's no clear division between butt and chair, there's just sensations in space.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Yes. That is what you focus on. That can open you to seeing there's no separate self.

Write here regularly even if it seems the same.

This is another pointer that can help.

Palm Flipping Exercise

1. Hold a hand in front of you; palm turned down.

2. Now turn the palm up. And down...and up and so on.

Watch like a hawk.

Don't go to thoughts – examine your direct experience.

Do this as many times as you like, and each time inquire:

How is the movement controlled?

Does a thought control it?

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?


Loving

[gnomon]

That can open you to seeing there's no separate self.

I don't think I think there's a separate self, fwiw.

How is the movement controlled?

it's just kind of happening.

Does a thought control it?

no

Can a ‘controller’ of any description be located?

no

How is the decision made to turn the hand over? Track any decision point when a thought MADE THE DECISION to turn the hand over and the hand turns over immediately.

there's no decision. the closest thing to a decision is a (mental) sound that happens with each rotation but it's just a rhythm that goes with it. not causal.

Who or what chose which hand - the left or right hand for the exercise?

nothing, left hand wasn't doing anything but right hand was typing.

Can you find a separate individual or anything that is choosing when to turn the palm up or down?

no, it just oscillates on its own

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. Keep practicing ButtChair.

We're looking for a shift in perception.

Loving,

[gnomon]

I don't think there's further shifts of perception coming from this avenue (which is to say my current perceptions are quite different to how they were a few years ago). as an example, it used to feel like "I" was in my skull, driving my body like a robot, trapped in a small dark space defined by the sensations of the muscles around my skull (I mean I didn't think of it that way at the time but). I was peering out from in my head at the world.

now I don't really have a skull, or ... the space in which thoughts and sensations appear is much bigger, anyway. my vision is different but I can't really remember how :) I guess wider at the sides, and probably both more obviously constructed and more present? it's certainly noisier, more flickery and jumpy and overlaid with noise generally (not sure it's all noise, exactly, it's the same visual channel my migraine auras show up in). my body is mostly a collection of wiggly sensations in space but I'm simultaneously much more grounded and at home in it.

There's still a perceptual center to experience (I have had some brief experiences of uncentered perception and it was very weird but I don't live there) but it's much less tight and contracted than it used to be. equivalent to my head and torso fuzzily, rather than a cricket-ball sized knot in the world in my skull.

I don't know if that's the kind of shift you mean but I suspect so? I will keep practicing buttchair anyway :)

[Anastacia42]

It's like this and like the examples in our books.

From an email from Ilona

Nothing dramatic happened.

There were no fireworks.
No permanent bliss states.
No sudden personality changes.

And yet, something shifted.


Here are a few things people said afterwards:

“I’m not fighting my experience anymore. There’s more space around everything.”

“I expected something big to happen. Instead, life feels simpler and I trust myself more.”

“There’s less urgency. The seeking has softened.”


This is the kind of shift this work supports.

Ilona Cuinate

Loving,

[gnomon]

I do think that's already happened for me, yeah.
The seeking does vary wildly over time but it's a lot less pressing than it used to be, in general :)

[Anastacia42]

Okay, good. We have some checkpoint questions. Your answers will be shared with other guides, who may have questions.

We have some traditional questions for you. Your replies will be shared with other guides who may have questions.

Be sure to answer individually using Quotes.


1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

What makes things happen? How does it work?

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

6) Anything to add?

Loving

[gnomon]

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

no, there's a tag on some thoughts that's intended to mark things as 'I' but it's not a real thing in experience.

2) Explain in detail what the illusion of separate self is, when it starts and how it works from your own experience. Describe it fully as you see it now.

it's a story, and it works like getting sucked in to any story, the world around you is re-written so the story's true. or rather the story's point of view is true from within the story, and 'you' get stuck there. but it's not real, it's a story in a bubble.

3) How does it feel to see this? What is the difference from before you started this dialogue? Please report from the past few days.

not a lot has changed in the last few days - I've been paying attention more, on a more regular basis, so I guess my habitual perceptions are a bit deeper than is usual.

4) What was the last bit that pushed you over, made you look?

for me it was more like a revelation, the voice in my head told me I wasn't the voice in my head, and things started changing from there.

5) Describe decision & give examples from experience.

decision is a fake idea lol. one time I finished reading an article, picked up a bowl and my water bottle, and walked down the hallway to the kitchen. halfway to the kitchen I distinctly thought "I'll be annoyed if I have to deal with these in the morning" and watched it try to become the reason I was walking down the hallway. I'm not sure how to explain 'watched it try to become the reason' but it was like I could see the tag starting to apply and it interrupted the process. felt stretchy and weird :) (to be clear I'd been reading an article on 'remaining uninvolved' or similar so I was just watching to see what happened. I explicitly didn't make a decision to pick the things up, but the thought tried to become one retroactively)

Describe intention & give examples from experience.

I've never understood intention, tbh, I have adhd and I have long known that wanting and intending to do something have nothing to do with actually doing them.

Describe free will & give examples from experience.

free will is also a label on some thoughts, as far as I can tell. like "I meant to do that! I chose it!" lol. stuff happens as it happens.

Describe choice & give examples from experience.

things just happen :) choice is another story. I do not always see this but it's getting easier.

Describe control & give examples from experience.

these days, when I knock something off my desk, or drop something, that same hand usually just sort of picks up the object out of the air before it falls far. I could not do this if I tried to do it but my body and hands can move without 'try'. I used to be so bound up in control physically, all my muscles would be fighting each other and I was a jerky mess. I'm a lot smoother now.

a lot of tension and clenching comes from trying to control things, to somehow wrench the world into the right shape, which comes from desire and ill-will eventually. I think those are significantly weaker for me now, but definitely not gone yet :)

What makes things happen? How does it work?

One time I was reading a paper about state machines, and then as I walked down the hallway I could see how each moment of perception blooms out of the previous one, like the visual body was made of millions of tiny flowers of perception, and thoughts like tiny flowers with a higher refresh rate, and bodily perceptions blooming out of each other more slowly. and it became clear to me that everything is made of changes and depends entirely on the state of everything else when it changes

which is to say basically things just happen. idk how it works, the above experience was direct but any description is necessarily metaphorical :)

What are you responsible for? Give examples from experience.

That's a good one. responsible feels grabby still. conventionally I am responsible for my son and as I write this it's clear that I can't ... usefully secure his health and safety. but I do have to provide for his needs to the best of my ability. Also my wife, and my family, and there's no reason to stop there. fortunately I don't need to know how to do that ahead of time ??

6) Anything to add?

Thanks for doing this, and for your patience :)
I don't have a tradition or a community of practice for this sort of thing, it kind of hit me out of the blue. I appreciate this community's willingness to engage with everyone where they are.

[Anastacia42]

Good work. To be clear to others, you saw before you showed up here.

Stay tuned.

Loving