Introduction

[Wisiwig]

Rowena, I posted a reply late Friday, but unfortunately something did not work properly and I did not save the Word file used to prepare the response, so I will need to replicate the response.
Scott

[Wisiwig]

Rowena, The second time through was much easier and the responses are more succinct. Looking forward to your response.

Just a few points to clear up here before I pass on to other guides to take a look.
Describe control and give an example from experience.
Control is exerting influence toward a desired end. The belief in one’s ability to control is a misinterpretation of an event by imputing an actor with the power to make decisions, generate a final choice, and exert influence. Example, there no control other than to exert control of attention.
This response is confusing. In the first sentence you are saying that the. "idea of control is a misinterpretation....... "
Then, in the second sentence you are saying that there are occasions where some ability for control is available. i.e. "to exert control of attention."

At the time I was unclear about the source of attention and control of attention. Now, I experience that attention is a mental (thought) process.

Who or what can exert control of attention? Can such an actor be found when you look closely?

There is no separate self controlling attention.

8) Anything to add?
Attention holds a role that is involved with intention and control. The current impression is that there can be control of attention, or at least the focus of attention. This is needed for tasks like meditating and focusing on Direct Experience. For example, there could be intention to focus attention, then effort to focus attention in the absence of a separate self.
This last paragraph seems to negate your responses to the questions above regarding intention and control.

"The current impression....."

In your direct experience, to what does this refer? What constitutes "a current impression." ? Is it anything more than an idea or a thought, i.e. thinking happening ?
Yes, it is a thought.

Is there anything separate anywhere that can be found to actually control or focus (or not focus) attention. Please say more about this.

No, there is no separate self controlling or focusing attention.

"This is needed......." Please say more about this, needed for whom?

It is not needed, attention arises.

".....then effort to focus attention in the absence if a separate self."
Please look in your direct experience to the word "effort."

The meat suit is involved in ‘efforting’. The ‘I am’ is not involved in effort.

To what does something called "effort" refer?

Effort refers to the meat suit exerting energy (physical or mental).

How does it show up?

Sometimes it shows up spontaneously, or sometimes after thought.

What does "effort" FEEL like?

Like an expenditure of energy.

Is there even such a thing as "effort" that can be used as a tool ?

There is no control over effort, it is something the meat suit does.

Best regards,
Wisiwig

[Noro]

Hello Wisiwig,

The meat suit is involved in ‘efforting’. The ‘I am’ is not involved in effort.

You have introduced two new concepts here, which muddy the waters. Anything conceptual, any ‘thing’ is a concept.

In your direct experience, can you find a meat suit?

Can any separate ‘things’ be found at all?

To what does a ‘meat suit’ refer, other than an experience of sensations? (Feeling/body sensation, visual etc.)

Please don’t ‘think’, look in DE,
Is there a meat suit?


And »The I am » ? (This is a spiritual concept, and we look directly here)

What is this « I am » ?

Can a separate « I am » be found in your direct experience ?

Where can this be located?

[Noro]

Hello Wisiwig,

The meat suit is involved in ‘efforting’. The ‘I am’ is not involved in effort.

You have introduced two new concepts here, which muddy the waters. Anything conceptual, any ‘thing’ is a concept.

In your direct experience, can you find a meat suit?

Can any separate ‘things’ be found at all?

To what does a ‘meat suit’ refer, other than an experience of sensations? (Feeling/body sensation, visual etc.)

Please don’t ‘think’, look in DE,
Is there a meat suit?


And »The I am » ? (This is a spiritual concept, and we look directly here)

What is this « I am » ?

Can a separate « I am » be found in your direct experience ?

Where can this be located?

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?


Warm regards,
Rowena

[Wisiwig]

Rowena, Thank you for the clarification these questions have provided.

You have introduced two new concepts here, which muddy the waters. Anything conceptual, any ‘thing’ is a concept.

In your direct experience, can you find a meat suit?

From the vantage of DE, there is not a ‘meat suit.’

Can any separate ‘things’ be found at all?

No separate things can be found.

To what does a ‘meat suit’ refer, other than an experience of sensations? (Feeling/body sensation, visual etc.)

Exactly. From the vantage of DE, there is only seeing, hearing, smelling, tasting, sensation, and thought.

Please don’t ‘think’, look in DE,
Is there a meat suit?

No, there is not a meat suit.

And »The I am » ? (This is a spiritual concept, and we look directly here)

What is this « I am » ?

Can a separate « I am » be found in your direct experience ?

DE does not reveal/suggest an ‘I am’.

Where can this be located?

It is not found in DE.

1) Is there a separate entity 'self', 'me' 'I', at all, anywhere, in any way, shape or form? Was there ever?

No, there is no separate self. There never was.

Best regards,
Wisiwig

[Noro]

Hello Wisiwig,

Thank you for the clarification these questions have provided.

You are welcome! I will now forward the response for the other guides to take a look at and see if anyone has further questions for you.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Noro]

Hello Wisiwig,

It has been a real pleasure to guide you and I am grateful that you allowed me to walk this path with you. I would just like to give some final things to consider:

For the vast majority of us this is not the end of awakening. Deepening, clarifying and letting go continues. Doubt may or may not put in an appearance, this is normal. Adverse conditioned responses and old patterns will get triggered when circumstances align. With future patterns and beliefs to be seen through, the same seeing that took you through the gate will put these in perspective too. The invitation is to walk lighter in the experiencing.

Paying it forward by guiding is a great way to 'deepen' and is a possibility that you may wish to consider.

An admin will contact you with an invitation to the LU FB group, if you are a Facebook user.

It is good to keep inquiring and clarifying this, as this is just the beginning.

If you ever have any questions, you can always ask anyone on the FB group, or reach out to me here via your thread on the forum.

Below are some excellent resources for further exploration. Go with what resonates?

Simply Awake app - Free app for your phone that contains dozens of meditation that will help you to keep looking deeper.

Also a great video from Angelo Dilullo on this process and how it deepens on its own, if not resisted, YouTube: Simply Always Awake "Self and No-Self"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3X_Xpd10pV0&t=38s

If you're interested in the fetters go to Kevin Shanilek's website for information:
https://simplytheseen.com/
There is also a Fetters Group on Facebook which offers a weekly meeting.

Also a great video conversation with Ilona and Kevin Shanilek:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1xWfBHN6oRk

Perfectly Okay.Org:
https://perfectlyokay.org/ is a free, supportive community that has many different modalities and meetings.

There are a number of teleconference groups if you have questions and/or would like to participate in conversation with others who have either been through the LU guiding or who are currently undergoing the process with a guide.

Vince Schubert now has three meetings. Please contact him via email:
vinceschubert@gmail.com for a link and schedule.
https://www.youtube.com/@vinceschubert

Ilona holds a monthly meeting, contact:
admin@ilonaciunaite.com for that link and schedule.

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Wisiwig]

Rowena, Thank you for your help in this process. I've spent the last week or so exploring the resources you provided. I connected with the PerfectlyOK group, that seems to be a good fit for me. I've also been admitted into the "Unfettered Awakening" discord channel with Pernile and Todd. So there are several good resources available for me.

With regards to guiding others, that is interesting to me. Is each guide expected to generate their own plan/material? I assume that guiding each person is an organic experience but is there a ‘manual’ or resources provided to new guides?

Best regards,
Wisiwig

[Noro]

Hello Wisiwig,

It is great to hear from you and that you have joined POK and also Unfettered Awakening.

With regards to guiding others, that is interesting to me. Is each guide expected to generate their own plan/material? I assume that guiding each person is an organic experience but is there a ‘manual’ or resources provided to new guides?

1. do you have a Facebook account? It is not 100% necessary, because I believe there are one or two guides who do not, but it is useful as there is a specific group for LU Guides where we can pose questions, and also share the checking-in questions for the other guides to take a look. I think that you can simply open an account in a name of your choice "Wisiwig" for example just for the LU Guides group.

2. If you are a member of that group there is a list of all the exercises to download, plus you are anyway always welcome to read the threads of other guides on the forum and see which style suits you and copy questions that resonate with you. It is a kind of organic process and develops as you go and is a great way to keep the motivation for one's own direct inquiry and integration.

3. Generally a new guide finds someone to act as a mentor for two or three rounds of guiding in case of need of support. The mentor will follow the thread and usually not make comments unless asked to.

4. Here is a booklet I found online: https://liberationunleashed.com/PDF/Direct_Pointing.pdf

5. I suggest you send an email to whoever contacted you when you completed the exploration as they can answer any other questions you might have.

I hope this is helpful,

Warm regards,
Rowena

[Wisiwig]

Rowena, I just went back through my emails and couild not find the message from LU about completing the insight activities. Will you ask them to send it again?
Best regards,
Scott

[Noro]

Yes, I am happy to do so, and will also mention that you are interested in guiding.

Rowena