seeking no self

[ellecay]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
this concept of a separate, unique self is a concept that is not borne out by direct experience.

What are you looking for at LU?
a path to understanding the lack of a self, an experiencer, a chooser. i've read a few books about the direct path and how to see through self-illusion, but i feel stuck in my limited understanding. i want some help in nudging me toward a deep shift in insight.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
liberation. i'm hoping for guidance on how to crack the illusion of a separate self, to know the impermanence and unsatisfactoriness of existence experientially, to get closer to dwelling in compassion and equanimity at all times.

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
my experiences with spiritual practices, seeking, and inquiry span from shedding childhood catholicism in adolescence to exploring buddhism through many years of reading and a vipassana retreat. i do daily anapana meditation.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[poppyseed]

Hi ellecay
(is that what you want me to call you?)

Welcome to Liberation Unleashed :)! It’s great to see you here!
My name is Rali, and I’ll be glad to be your guide if you like.

Here at LU we assist in the exploration of the idea of the separate self. This is a guiding based on experience that brings a shift in perception and is not a debate. It directly points to what IS through the use of exercises, questions and dialogue. What is expected from you is to LOOK carefully to what is being pointed at. It is this simple LOOKING (not thinking) that brings a shift in perception.

Here, we are LOOKING directly into the experience of the senses, which is actually here and now, with the thinking stripped away. It is also known as Direct Experience (DE) or Actual Experience (AE). In this way, we are aiming to discover what is truly happening without the story we tell ourselves. For this process to work you have to answer with 100% honesty, and not relying on thought, imagination or memory - just reporting your direct experience. That would also mean leaving spiritual teachings, philosophies and science away during the inquiry. If you have a meditation practice, please feel free to continue with it as usual – it might come helpful.

Please read through “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU.
http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

When replying to a question, please use the quote function to highlight the question being answered. Throughout this inquiry, please answer questions individually, not in a bundle. Please watch the below video to learn how to use the Quote function. This will assist us in having a clear dialogue around the questions and answers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-fAToDNh9hQ

It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. It will save you time in the long run, if a glitch in the system wipes out your answer.

For the sake of the intensity of the inquiry let’s try to stick to a daily conversation. Of course, life happens, so if you need more time, please let me know. I will do as well.
What time zone are you in?
If you're okay with everything so far, we can start.
Love
Rali

[ellecay]

Hi Rali--

You can call me elle; I'm in US Pacific timezone. I read everything and I'm ready to begin! I can post every day, or let you know that I need more time. What time zone are you writing from? Will I get emailed alerts when you've replied to posts?
Nice to hear from you, and I look forward to the time we will share.
All the best to you,
Elle

[poppyseed]

Hi Elle
In order to receive notifications you need to be subscribed to your topic. Please make sure that you are subscribed. In the top left corner, next to "Post Reply" there is an icon that looks like a spanner. When you click on it there is a menu where you can select “subscribe topic’. Click on it once. If you want to be sure that you are subscribed just refresh the page and if you click again should show now “ unsubscribe topic”. Don’t click on it as it will unsubscribe you :).

I'm in US Pacific time zone

I'm GMT+2. We have a bit of a difference but we’ll manage

I read everything and I'm ready to begin!

Great!

First things first, let’s get your expectations out on in the open:

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

3. What do you want not to happen?

4. What are you hoping for?

5. What is missing?

Love
Rali

[ellecay]

Rali!

Thank you for your message! I have answered your questions below and look forward to hearing back from you.

Love,
Elle

1. What will be different when you realize there’s no separate self?

I think I will have a more accurate perspective on reality, unconfused by thought. I imagine the realization will be analogous to taking off a heavy coat, a sense of lightness and more freedom of movement for my heart.

2. What do you expect to happen as a result of this?

I’m hoping to feel a new openness toward life, more welcoming of experience as it comes.

3. What do you want not to happen?

I don’t want to lose my stability. I have safe housing, a decent job, financial security, a solid car, my kids are healthy, I have a loving network of friends. I think my biggest fear is all of this falling apart. I have lost everything before, and I know I can survive, but the losses were painful, and I do feel an anxious clinging to these things. But I do not fear that this process will result in any such losses.

4. What are you hoping for?

I want to experience the interconnectedness of all life. I don’t just want to understand that it is, I want to feel the truth deeply.

5. What is missing?

I don't know if I understand the question, but nothing seems to be missing?

[poppyseed]

Hi Elle
Thank you for your honesty! It can be challenging to become aware of what we really believe. The questions were a means to seeing what expectations you have, as everyone has some “idea” about awakening. There is so much information out there now with so many people sharing their experiences, and “teachers” preaching how it supposed to look and feel, that to have no expectations is almost impossible.

Your expectations are somewhat reasonable, but ultimately, expectations are a hindrance. They cling to an idea of how it is supposed to go, which is not necessarily correct, and this is why I asked you to read the FAQ’s of what Liberation Unleashed is NOT. When realisation happens, it can be very subtle and if there are expectations of any kind, then it can be missed and the guiding becomes very difficult. I can promise you there will be no fireworks; it is just a subtle shift in perception! The only true expectation, that you can have, is that the seeking will end. If there are any other expectations, it's good to acknowledge them and then set them aside. It is all much simpler and ordinary. Is that OK with you?

I don’t want to lose my stability. I have safe housing, a decent job, financial security, a solid car, my kids are healthy, I have a loving network of friends. I think my biggest fear is all of this falling apart. I have lost everything before, and I know I can survive, but the losses were painful, and I do feel an anxious clinging to these things. But I do not fear that this process will result in any such losses.

Like I said, it’s just a shift of perception. How can an illusion have experiences/lack of them? An illusion is an illusion. It has never existed and it never will…

Do you expect that somehow you are going to turn into a zombie or a vegetable?
Life expresses itself and "we" are part of this expression. In some way, we get the idea that we are life and we dictate what is happening, we think, we do things and we need protection but when we examine this closely, we see it for what it is - just a mirage, an illusion. There is no doer and thinker. Things are just happening.
Let’s examine this carefully. Fear/resistance serves to protect the imaginary self from harm. In this case it protects “you” from changing and losing your “functionality”. But let’s be clear here… why would the absence of something that has NEVER existed cause a change in existing stuff?
You probably believed in Santa when you were little. There was magic and joy, and love, and giving, and caring. When you realised that Santa is not real, did Christmas change? Did the spirit of Christmas disappear or just the belief in Santa?

What we’ll see soon is that fear is just a sensation with a thought. Fear has a purpose – to protect old ways, conditioning, beliefs, hopes- the survival of the imaginary self. So, obviously when threatened there will be fear involved. But once it is seen that there is nothing that needs protection, it falls away. How we deal with fear initially, is to acknowledge it, thank it for doing its job, allow it to be there, don’t fight it. Then you look carefully what it is protecting and ask yourself if this protection is really necessary...

Now… If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

Do it a few times. Again the more you uncover, the better starting point we have. Whatever comes up is "right", it is exactly what needs to be seen right now. As usual, honesty will make this work

Love
Rali

[ellecay]

Dear, Rali,

Thank you for taking your time with me, I really appreciate it. I'm struggling in thoughts/concepts, trying to see what is--I know I'm literally already there, but I am not yet seeing.

If you look for the I, what is there? If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up? Where exactly did you look? What exactly did you find? Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?

If you look for the I, what is there?
When I look for the I. What is looking? What does that mean? When I close my eyes to search for an “I”, there are thoughts, seemingly endless streams of thoughts. There’s the sensation of my body touching the couch, my clothes, my face itches. Sounds come, my cat crunching food, traffic passing. It seems like a self is perceiving these things. What is a self? A body animated with life? Because that’s objectively here, life reacting to life, and isn’t that “i”? “My” thoughts are the stickiest. My body, my abdominal muscles, clench when I have possessive ideas; My thoughts, like My kids, My job, My cats, My abdominal muscles, there’s a lot of contraction around that.

If I say there’s no doer, thinker, experiencer, decision maker, or a witness, what comes up?
What comes up. A lot of arguing thoughts. But if there’s no thinker….to what do these thoughts arise? Do thoughts just arise? They arise and it seems like something is aware of them–the body reacts, there are sensations of clenching or bracing–but is there something in the middle between the thought and the sensation, a witness as you say? Or does thought arise and body react without an experiencer? Thoughts really quarrel with this. I understand in one way, that idea that there’s a separate entity inside of this body/brain complex, an entity mediating experience, seems silly–what would that I even look like? A mite with glasses and a coffee mug? But at the same time, my limited intellect seems locked in (il?)logical binaries, like, if perceiving is happening, there must be a perceiver, a witness, a watcher of the tv of everything.

Where exactly did you look?
I closed my eyes and sat quietly and tried to find an I. But thoughts of what "I" am keep intruding. "I" am an organism, a body brain... And then I tell those thoughts thank you for your input, let me look.... and more thoughts arise: "i" am clearly not in charge of thoughts because i would make them be quiet if i was, so thoughts must just happen on their own...and i thank those thoughts for their input and try again to look.

What exactly did you find?
I found thoughts and sensations. A lot of thoughts and a few sensations. SO many thoughts. Thoughts generate, and those thoughts seem to generate bodily sensations.

Please describe in detail what appears – feelings, sensations, thoughts, anything?
When I close my eyes and try to look for an I….I find a feeling of separateness. A sensation that I am a capsule of thoughts and sensations but that other life is happening around me.

[poppyseed]

Hi Elle
Thank you for your honest reply. It gives me an idea where to begin.

When I look for the I. What is looking? What does that mean? When I close my eyes to search for an “I”, there are thoughts, seemingly endless streams of thoughts. There’s the sensation of my body touching the couch, my clothes, my face itches. Sounds come, my cat crunching food, traffic passing. It seems like a self is perceiving these things. What is a self? A body animated with life? Because that’s objectively here, life reacting to life, and isn’t that “i”? “My” thoughts are the stickiest. My body, my abdominal muscles, clench when I have possessive ideas; My thoughts, like My kids, My job, My cats, My abdominal muscles, there’s a lot of contraction around that.

Shifting is different from not finding a self. Not finding something doesn’t prove that it doesn’t exist. You simply couldn’t find it. In the shift, it is positively seen that there is no self.
Before we start let’s just make sure that you understand how to LOOK for no self in the exercises…
Looking is a matter of noticing what is already here, not inventing or imagining something.
Looking is finding out what is true in experience. If you can’t see for yourself, you cannot describe it in your own words (but you can attempt to describe it using someone else’s words, from memory). There is a BIG difference between knowing that there is nothing and seeing that there is nothing.
Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what colour socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to answer:
1. You can think about it, trying to remember, or guessing what colour they are.
2. You can have a look at your socks and see what colour they ACTUALLY are!
You will agree that only by looking you could be 100% certain, right?

For the purpose of this inquiry, it is crucial that you are clear about this difference in the two ways of answering and stick only to the second way. We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on. We are only interested in Direct (Actual) Experience (DE/AE)- the experience right now and right here.

Direct or Actual Experience is:

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (not emotion - emotion is sensation plus thoughts/labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content, what the thought is ABOUT)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.
Here's an exercise for you to get super clear on what direct experience is. You can use this photo of an apple or a real apple.



Have a look at an apple. When ‘looking at an apple’, there's colour, a thought saying ‘apple,' and maybe a thought saying, "I'm looking at an apple." What about the content of thoughts, what they describe? While these thoughts are known, what they talk ABOUT cannot be found in direct or actual experience. Direct, actual experience is sound, thought, colour(sight), smell, taste and sensation.

Taste labelled ‘apple’ is known
Colour (visual information) labelled ‘apple’ is known
Sensation labelled ‘apple’ is known (when apple is touched)
Smell labelled ‘apple’ is known
Thought about/of an ‘apple’ is known
However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

Love
Rali

[ellecay]

Hi Rali--

Thank you for your reply! I have apples at home, so I used a real apple.

However, is 'an apple' actually known? (Or is it just a label?) Is there really an ‘apple’ here, or only colour and a thought ABOUT ‘apple’? Can ‘apple’ be found in actual experience?

I used a real apple and spent some time with it.

Labels for what I saw, felt, tasted:

Red and yellow, shiny, smooth, slick, off white, crisp, juicy, sweet. Touching, biting, chewing, and swallowing.

No direct experience "apple." Only a thought "apple," a label for that combination of traits that is named apple based on past experience and english language consensus.

So then.

"I" is a label for a combination of experiences (body, thoughts, memory, other people's ideas). But if I look for “I” in direct experience, I will find only a thought I, not something red and yellow, shiny, smooth, cool, slick, sweet, crisp, and juicy?

I understand that I am supposed to be looking for what IS. What is actually here now, that I can perceive with my senses, which, in direct experience, is all there is. So how do I LOOK? Where do I LOOK? How does attention “know” where to aim if there is no “I?”

An apple on the counter gives a place for attention to go. How does my attention aim to see what IS here? My senses feel/hear my clothes, the couch, my cat, traffic passing. How do I let go? How do I see through the illusion of a “me” that identifies as the perceiver of all that?

Your clarification about seeing positively what is really helps!

Love,
lauren

[poppyseed]

Hi Lauren

Lovely looking with the apple! :)

Red and yellow, shiny, smooth, slick, off white, crisp, juicy, sweet. Touching, biting, chewing, and swallowing.

No direct experience "apple." Only a thought "apple," a label for that combination of traits that is named apple based on past experience and english language consensus.

Yes, “apple” is a thought/label that points to sensations, taste, smell, and colour, but there is no an actual apple as an “object”. “Object” is another general label/thought that points to just hearing (sound), seeing (colour), feeling (sensation), smelling (smell), and tasting (taste). Clear?
Notice that yellow, shiny, crisp, sweet, chewing, swallowing, etc. are also labels pointing to seeing, smelling, tasting, feeling (no hearing here)…

Just to ensure that the momentum of looking is going and that you are crystal clear about DE and labels related to it... Here's an exercise that you can try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities, objects and emotions simply as colour/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought as per the apple example.
For example, when having coffee in the morning, become aware of:
Seeing a cup, simply= colour (seeing)
Smelling coffee, simply = smell (smelling)
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation (feeling)
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste (tasting)
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound (hearing)
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought (thinking)

Break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists EXACTLY like the one above. Please write a few examples from your daily life.

I understand that I am supposed to be looking for what IS. What is actually here now, that I can perceive with my senses, which, in direct experience, is all there is. So how do I LOOK? Where do I LOOK? How does attention “know” where to aim if there is no “I?”

Notice what is happening here. There is an assumption that there must be someone directing attention, someone doing the looking, someone who needs to figure out how to see. But is that actually true?

Close your eyes. With eyes closed, you will now experience 'blackness'. There may be other things you can find going on, sure. If you are looking at a bright light, there may be a red glow. There may be sparkly bits or cloudy flecks appearing and disappearing - It really doesn't matter about the specifics. Just to make things simple, whatever you can see with eyes closed, I'm going to refer to it as 'black' or 'blackness' just for simplicity.
With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Lauren/a person/an entity be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?
Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

We will have a proper look at attention when the time comes. Please indulge me in building a "solid base" first. You’ve waited for so many years, you can wait a tiny bit more :)
But remember… We are not trying to make the self disappear. We are checking whether the separate self that supposedly directs and controls experience can actually be found in the first place. You don't need to let go of anything, Lauren. And you don't need to make attention go anywhere special.

Love
Rali

[ellecay]

Hi Rali,

Nice to hear from you! Thank you for your patience while I learn to work through this!

There is an assumption that there must be someone directing attention, someone doing the looking, someone who needs to figure out how to see. But is that actually true?

I’m wrestling with this.

It is an assumption, yes, that there must be someone directing attention–but it feels like someone is, for example, when I focus my attention on my breath. There is a thought, “Focus on breath.” And then there is a choice to bring attention to my nose, then there is hearing and feeling breath: awareness of the sensations of breath. The choosing? The awareness? The perceiving? How does that happen by/to no one?

But then I close my eyes and kind of look. Who does the awareness “belong” to, or arise to? It doesn’t “belong to.” It doesn't arise. Awareness is just being awareness. Awareness just is? And my sensory system just plugs into it somehow so things appear to awareness and my senses sense those appearing things? What knows the contents of awareness? Nothing/no one knows? Knowing is just a concept?

There is only the cognized, no cognizer. Congizing is happening, that is real. But a cognizer is an illusion.

With eyes closed, can you confirm that what is experienced is 'blackness' as I mentioned?
Is there anything else in 'seeing' other than 'blackness'?
Can what is seeing/witnessing the blackness be found?
Can a pair of eyes, an 'I' / 'me'/Lauren/a person/an entity be found that is witnessing the blackness? Or is there just 'blackness' to be found?
What do you find?

With eyes closed, blackness. Just blackness. I cannot find anything that is seeing the blackness; it just is. And it is all that is seen. Breathing is happening, a quiet whoosh sound, a feeling of air moving across my nostrils, the sensation of clothes on my body, which feels like softness and gentle pressure, the pressure of the chair against my skin. But only blackness is seen, no seer. And no feeler. And no hearer.

Can an INHERENT SEE-ER be found?
Would anything that is suggested as the see-er/observer/experiencer, be anything other than a concept/idea/thought?

This body sees and hears and smells and tastes and touches and thinks. And I guess then a thought arises that “I” must be the receiver and interpreter of this raw experience, but that is a thought, not itself findable/perceptible by the senses. A thought.

Thoughts arise about how sensory information travels through nerves to the brain and electrical impulses interpret that sensory information, triggering more electrical impulses to react based on data in its memory bank, collected over a lifetime, nothing I could choose–even if a chooser existed. So even in thought, even conceptually, “I” makes no sense.

Love,
elle

[poppyseed]

Hey Elle :)

You're doing some lovely looking here! :)
There is something in your reply that I'd like us to explore a little further before we return to attention/awareness and choice.

This body sees and hears and smells and tastes and touches and thinks.

Let's take a closer look at that.
In the apple exercise, you discovered that although colour, taste, smell and sensation were present, an actual "apple" couldn't be found apart from these experiences and the thoughts labelling them.
So what about the body? Is a body actually experienced, or is "body" another label for a collection of experiences?
Let's investigate rather than answer from what we know.
1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?
Observe the order in which the details appear
2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is?
Does the body have a weight or volume?
In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?
Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?
Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?
Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?
What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body?
Can the 'body' do things? Can the “body” think? Can the body smell or taste?
When your eyes are closed and blackness is seen, is a body doing the seeing actually experienced? Or is there just blackness, with a thought telling you that a body must be seeing it?

Don't use what you know about biology to answer. Just look at what's present.
I'm especially interested in what you discover about the boundaries of the body and whether a body itself can be found in sensation.

Look very carefully, especially with “the body doing things”. You can look several times during the day while doing other things (like washing hands, showering, walking, lying down, etc) before replying.

Love
Rali

[ellecay]

Hi Rali,

Thanks for your questions! These were hard for me.

So what about the body? Is a body actually experienced, or is "body" another label for a collection of experiences?

The body receives and interprets all kinds of sensory input and reacts. It is visible. It is touchable. It lives. Isn’t it experiencing life?

1. Take something cold from the fridge – like a can of cooldrink. When you touch the can, what does more accurately describe your experience:
a. Your fingers feeling cold because of touching a cold can; or
b. Coldness - sensation labelled “cold”? With eyes closed, where does the cold appear?

Coldness and dampness in a specific area, like, feeling cold in one part of the body not another.

2. Sit comfortably on a chair. Close your eyes and relax. Pay attention only to the feeling of your body. Just notice the pure sensations, without relying on thoughts or mental images. Keep your eyes closed and look:
Can it be known how tall the body is? Does the body have a weight or volume?

No and no

In the actual experience does the body have a shape or a form?

It has areas: I can bring awareness to legs, belly, hands. But a shape, I can't feel a shape with my eyes closed. I can feel sensation in some areas.

Is there a boundary between the body and the chair? At the point where your body contacts the chair, are there two things there, a body and chair, or one, sensation?

Just a sensation of pressure.

Is it "my" body, or is it just a body?

It feels like mine. If hunger occurs, there’s a thought to eat. My body gets up, opens the fridge, takes out food, and eats. I feel like I’m answering this question wrong. Like the answer is there’s just a body, no possessor of the body. Because where would a possessor BE? Can the body possess itself? I guess, bodies just are, they are not owned and do not own. But it feels like when I notice a sensation, like the ache in my belly that means hunger, thoughts react, and ideally, the body feeds itself. I guess that could be a completely impersonal process, but it seems like there’s a force propelling the process.

Is there an inside or an outside? If there is an inside - the inside of what exactly? If there is an outside - the outside of what exactly?

I don’t know how to approach this. I think there is an inside, because when I chew food and swallow it, it goes down into my stomach, I can feel it going down. I can literally see parts of the outside. I guess what I see is colors, shapes, what I feel is textures, and I call those experiences a body.

What does the word/label ‘body’ ACTUALLY refer to? What is the ACTUAL experience of the body? Can the 'body' do things? Can the “body” think? Can the body smell or taste?

Thinking occurs, smelling and tasting occur in the context of the body. In this body, seeing, hearing, and touching happen. It is where the sensors (ears, eyes, nose, mouth, skin, (and brain, which in direct experience is thought)) are. It can walk and sit. It sleeps. I can look in a mirror and see a body, see eyes, ears, nose, mouth, skin. But I cannot see who it belongs to. The body changes constantly, with nobody’s permission. If the body didn’t have a brain and the breath, the senses wouldn’t function. I know–I can’t find a “brain” in direct experience, so how do I know it exists? Thought exists, though, so even if I don’t know in direct experience that I have a brain, thought is happening somehow. Biology is getting in my way here.

When your eyes are closed and blackness is seen, is a body doing the seeing actually experienced? Or is there just blackness, with a thought telling you that a body must be seeing it?

There is just blackness.

Love,
elle

[poppyseed]

Hi Elle
Thank you for looking so carefully! And especially for being honest about what is confusing.

I feel like I’m answering this question wrong.

There are no right or wrong answers here, Elle. I'm not looking for you to agree with me or arrive at a particular conclusion. I'm interested in what you actually find when you look. If something doesn't make sense, say so. If you don't know, that's a perfectly good answer!
Now, notice something interesting in your replies. When you closed your eyes and investigated the body, you found: no height, weight or volume, no shape, just sensations in different areas, no boundary between the body and the chair, just pressure, no body doing the seeing, just blackness.
But when you explain what the body is and what it does, suddenly there is a whole story about organs, nerves, a brain, sensory information and a body that experiences life.
I'm not saying biology is wrong! It's just not what we're investigating here. That’s why I asked you to leave all knowledge behind during the inquiry – be it scientific or spiritual, or whatever. We're looking at the difference between what is actually experienced and what thought says ABOUT the experience.
Remember the apple? You didn't have to deny the existence of apples to discover that, in direct experience, there was colour, taste, sensation and thought labelling these "apple."
I suppose the analogy with the icons on your computer desktop comes handy. They are used as a visual representation of what is actually a binary code – zeros and ones - so you can make use of them. But is the icon of email really a box with mail in it?

Let's apply exactly the same looking to the body.

It has areas: I can bring awareness to legs, belly, hands.

Close your eyes again. Notice the sensations you call "legs."
Without referring to a mental picture of legs, what makes those sensations into legs?
Do the sensations themselves say "leg"? Do they have a shape or a name?
Or does a thought identify them?
And when you say that coldness appeared "in one part of the body," how is that location known? Is a body with different parts actually present in sensation, or is there sensation together with a mental map of the body?
Take a little time with that.

It feels like mine.

Let's look at that feeling!
What exactly makes the “body” feel like "mine"?
Is there a particular sensation that says "this belongs to me"?
Or is there a sensation, followed by a thought saying "my body"?
Can you find an actual owner of the body anywhere, apart from that thought?

If hunger occurs, there’s a thought to eat. My body gets up, opens the fridge, takes out food, and eats. I feel like I’m answering this question wrong. Like the answer is there’s just a body, no possessor of the body. Because where would a possessor BE? Can the body possess itself? I guess, bodies just are, they are not owned and do not own. But it feels like when I notice a sensation, like the ache in my belly that means hunger, thoughts react, and ideally, the body feeds itself. I guess that could be a completely impersonal process, but it seems like there’s a force propelling the process.

Next time hunger appears, watch what actually happens. There may be sensations in the belly, thoughts about food, movement towards the fridge, seeing food, reaching, tasting, chewing and swallowing. All of that is happening.
But can you find a separate entity making it happen?

I guess that could be a completely impersonal process, but it seems like there’s a force propelling the process.

Don't guess! LOOK instead! :) That sense of a force is worth investigating.
When it feels as though something is propelling the body, what is actually / directly experienced?
Is it a sensation? A thought? An urge?
And does that sensation or urge prove the existence of something controlling the process?

For now, leave the brain, biology and explanations aside. They aren't going anywhere.
I'd particularly like you to look at two things:
What makes a sensation into "my body"?
And what, in actual experience, is this feeling of a force that makes things happen?
Don't try to solve them intellectually. Just describe what you find.
Love
Rali

[ellecay]

Hello Rali!

Thank you for your words! I think I really struggle to let go of thinking about everything. I try to feel into direct experience and the mind stands back and yells, "But what about..." and "That doesn't make sense!" I'm working to cultivate patience with the process. I appreciate your patience as well.

Without referring to a mental picture of legs, what makes those sensations into legs?
Do the sensations themselves say "leg"? Do they have a shape or a name?
Or does a thought identify them?

It’s part of an internal map? That my attention knows where to focus when I try to bring awareness to different parts of my body. The sensations just arise, but the sensation feels different when I bring my attention to my hands vs my legs vs my head. The most accurate thing I can come up with is: The sensations are felt, but I don’t know how. They arise and are perceived.

And when you say that coldness appeared "in one part of the body," how is that location known? Is a body with different parts actually present in sensation, or is there sensation together with a mental map of the body?

The idea of a map of the body is interesting, because I'm not picturing the parts. It's a felt sense of the parts--the feel formless, but specific. I can move my attention throughout my body, and only one area felt coldness, while others felt tension, pressure, and shaking. Like. I don’t know how to describe that. If I close my eyes, my body still feels spacious.

Is attention thought?

What exactly makes the “body” feel like "mine"? Is there a particular sensation that says "this belongs to me"? Or is there a sensation, followed by a thought saying "my body"? Can you find an actual owner of the body anywhere, apart from that thought?

Ooooh. I don’t know! When I wake up, I hear my alarm, I see my hands, there’s stiffness and soreness in my back, I feel the cat walking over me, my legs are tangled in the covers--these sensations are very familiar. And those are sensations, hearing, seeing, feeling, that seem like they’re happening to “my” body. But “I” am not my body? What DOES make it feel like mine? It’s constantly changing and doing body things like breathing and thirsting and making urine that NO ONE is directing. I is a very grippy thought. So when I think “I” or “my” there is stomach contracting, like it’s grasping. But it’s grasping nothing, it’s just tense. I am not perceiving any correlation between the grabby stomach sensation and something actually owning the body. It's a sensation and it comes and it goes. Maybe the body simply is, operating of its own instinct.

Next time hunger appears, watch what actually happens. There may be sensations in the belly, thoughts about food, movement towards the fridge, seeing food, reaching, tasting, chewing and swallowing. All of that is happening. But can you find a separate entity making it happen?

I feel emptiness in my stomach. I think to go to the fridge and choose not to. I'm having dinner with a friend later. That feels like a choice, choosing to not go. But that "choice" isn't really "mine." Here i'm going to thought again: that "choice" was a reaction conditioned by similar situations I've experienced in the past. It's not actually volitional.

When it feels as though something is propelling the body, what is actually / directly experienced? Is it a sensation? A thought? An urge? And does that sensation or urge prove the existence of something controlling the process?

It’s an impulse. It feels electrical. Similar to how reflex feels. No, the impulse doesn’t prove there’s a controller, but the response seems like it suggests a responder who receives impulses then acts. But that goes back to what I said earlier about "choice" being a reaction conditioned by an instantaneous data analysis of the past. So then. There is just a process, and nothing controls it? But I'm still busy having likes and dislikes and trying....What is this I? I is just a thought generating thoughts of liking and disliking, grasping and aversion. What is so attached to the I? A thought can't be attached.

Love,
Elle