it is what it is but what is it

[gnomon]

LU is focused guiding for seeing there is no real, inherent 'self' - what do you understand by this?
I don't know what the self 'is'. there's no little guy in my head choosing/doing/whatever.

~3 years ago, the voice in my head said "you are not the voice in your head, you're the thing that's listening to it" along with a schematic diagram of how my mind works. But the voice in my head was talking to me (the thing that's listening?) at the time...

What are you looking for at LU?
My life radically changed after the experience above. but now it feels kind of normal. I feel like something started back then but maybe it's stalled out now and I should be coming at it from a different angle. I don't think there's anything I can *do* but stuff happens in response to the environment so if the environment changes then maybe I will too.

It feels a bit like I saw through (some of) the self but there's lower levels of self-identifying happening. for instance, there's definitely a 'me' involved in planning things, but planning things is also sort of an obviously fabricated process with no useful relationship with anything real. Feeling like I have to plan things is a habit but it's a habit that hangs on the idea that there's an I that can do it. I don't really get this.

I guess I'd like to find 'the thing that's listening', whatever it may be.

What do you expect from a guided conversation?
no expectations, but high hopes?

different perspectives, wiser voices, blinding illumination, comical misunderstandings, gentle nudges.

tell me if I'm being stupid in obvious and avoidable ways and point me somewhere else :)

What is your experience in terms of spiritual practices, seeking and inquiry?
three years ago I was burning out and needed something to change. After a few months of doing very little but let my brain decompress, I (as I understand it now!) gave myself permission to look at my life and experiences very deeply, and entered a period of intense change and unlearning, during which time I received a lot of insights about a lot of things.

I developed a practice which looks a lot like 'non-directed body movement' as described by others and got a lot more connected to my body and perceptual processes in this time.

After a few months of this, I woke up one day in the blackest pit of depression I've ever experienced. The next month or two was very rough but eventually I came to a deep sense of equanimity. I think this is present all the time now (certainly when I look for it) but it's often obscured by life stuff.

I've been reading everything* I can about these sorts of subjects ever since. I don't meditate regularly but I do a lot of incidental body/mind work while standing around most days. I have no idea if any of this even counts as spiritual practice or inquiry tbh.

*I can't make myself read eckhart tolle, even though my insights are apparently plagiarised from his books. maybe I should.

On a scale from 1 to 10, how willing are you to question any currently held beliefs about 'self?
10

[Anastacia42]

Good morning,

No need to read Tolle. That's still just more thinking.

My life radically changed after the experience above. but now it feels kind of normal.

You may have already seen that there's no "self." And finished a honeymoon period.

Watch these, please:

https://youtu.be/vJQcD588g2w

and

https://youtu.be/PUDzrCLlrj4

This is just a beginning.


My name is Stacy and I can be your guide, if you would like.

One thing that is helpful is to come to this forum
& post every day. Sometimes the site goes down. It will be back. Just come back later.

Yes, if once in a while you must post later, please post a note telling me when you will return.

If you haven't already read the disclaimer, please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/disclaimer-2/

Also please read “Liberation Unleashed is not …” in the FAQ’s of LU. Here is the link.

http://liberationunleashed.com/about/faq/#faq-1041

Some housekeeping guidelines:

1. Post at least once a day, or every second day. If you need more time, or are unable to post for several days, just write a quick post on your thread to let me know please.

2. There is no one judging answers given, so please be 100% honest in your answers and inquiry.

3. This exploration is based on actual experience (AE) - smell, taste, sound, sensation, color and observed thoughts. Long-winded analytical and philosophical answers are best avoided and may even hinder progress. This is not a self-improvement process. There is no ‘self’ to improve.

4. Put aside all other teachings, philosophies, rituals, practices, books/reading and so on for the remainder of this investigation. Really put all your effort and attention in to seeing this reality, as it is. If you have a daily meditation practice, it is fine to continue that but is not necessary for this exploration.

Technology is not perfect and sometimes there is a glitch which can wipe out your responses. It is advisable that you copy and paste questions asked into Word, answer them there and then copy and paste them to your thread. Always save a copy of what you have done, it will save time in the long run!

To begin with, so that we both become aware of what your expectations are about this exploration. In your own words (not from actual experience, but just honest answers), could you please answer the 4 following questions:

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

Throughout this exploration I would like you to answer all questions that I have written in blue text. Please answer all questions even if I miss using the blue text.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?


Loving,

[gnomon]

You may have already seen that there's no "self." And finished a honeymoon period.

Watch these, please:

I think that might be what happened, yes.
I have watched these videos and Ilona's bit about things falling away seems very familiar. It's hard to remember the things that disappeared, though, so it's difficult to check :)

please post a note telling me when you will return.

Will do. I will be out this weekend and may not have access to the forum but I'll be around tomorrow and next week.

please read it now and just confirm to me that you have read it.

I have read the disclaimer!

How will life change?
How will you change?
What will be different?
What is missing?

I'm reading these as 'what are your expectations, post-awakening, about (question)', which might not be the intended reading.
1. I don't expect life to change at all, just my response to it.
2. I don't expect much about 'me' to change, but I do expect less suffering about it.
3. externally not much, internally things will be quieter?
4. not sure anything is.

What would you like for me to call you? What time zone are you in, please?

gnomon is fine, thanks :) I'm in gmt+10

thanks for making the time to help out with this!

[Anastacia42]

Hi Gnomon

Please Quote one question at a time with one answer underneath. I read von my phone. Later we'll be asking other volunteer guides to read your answers, and this makes it easier on them.

Please answer questions individually, remembering to use the quote function to highlight the question being answered.

Below is a link to the video with instructions on using the Quote Function. Please watch it. Use the PREVIEW button to make sure your text looks right before you hit "SUBMIT."

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=660

I'm in Texas. US Central Time.

Your expectations are v mostly reasonable



So now what comes up when reading there's no "self " never has been and that it's all just a made up story?

Loving

[gnomon]

Please Quote one question at a time with one answer underneath. I read von my phone. Later we'll be asking other volunteer guides to read your answers, and this makes it easier on them.

very sorry, won't happen again.

So now what comes up when reading there's no "self " never has been and that it's all just a made up story?

not much, as far as I can tell. it reads like it's true :) the self is a story, a more-or-less grabby one at different times. much more present right now while typing than while looking before.

unfortunately I just took my insomnia medication and there's a lot of weird stuff happening in my body. makes it harder to find subtle changes.

[Anastacia42]

Okay, sleep well.

I'm going to give you some basics & then ask some checkpoint questions after that


This is how to LOOK for no self in the exercises - we call them "pointers' - that we will be doing here:

Colored Socks

There is a big difference between knowing that there is nothing to give up and seeing that there is nothing to give up.

Here is an example to illustrate the difference:

If I ask you what color socks you are wearing right now you have two ways to come up with an answer:

• You can think about it, you can think back to this morning and try to remember putting your socks on, and you can probably tell me what color you think they are.

• Alternatively, you can take a quick look at your socks and tell me what color they actually are!

Hopefully you would agree that you can only be 100% certain by looking.

For the purpose of seeing this "no self" idea, it is very important that you are clear about this difference.

Knowing is about knowledge which is all in the mind and we are not interested in that

We are only interested in looking at and seeing what is actually going on in your present moment-to-moment experience. We are only interested in your Direct Experience in the moment..

Direct or Actual Experience is

Seeing
Hearing
Feeling (Sensation, not emotion. Emotion is Sensation plus made-up thoughts & labels)
Tasting
Smelling
Thoughts Arising (but not their content)

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.



Loving,

[gnomon]

Please let me know if you are clear about this or if you would like any further clarification.

I'm clear about it.
With the socks, it's mildly funny because I only have black socks, but I understand the difference between knowing this for reasons and observing it directly.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Now let's practice.


Direct Experience - Labeling Daily Activities

Here's an exercise that I would like you to try as many times throughout the day as you can. Label daily activities simply color/image, sound, smell, taste, sensation, thought.

So for example, when having breakfast, become aware of:

Seeing a cup, simply= image/color
Smelling coffee, simply = smell
Feeling the warmth of the coffee cup, simply = sensation
Tasting the coffee, simply = taste
Hearing the spoon stirring the coffee, simply = sound
Thought about drinking the coffee, simply = thought

Just break down daily activities into these categories (which are all Actual/Direct Experience) and report back with lists exactly like the one above.

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

Refer to the green list of Actual/Direct Experience in the prior post if that helps. Those are the only items any experience can be.

Loving,

[gnomon]

Post several of your own observations in a list *exactly* like the one above, please.

seeing a cashew = colour, image
smelling a cashew = smell
feeling it in my hand = feeling/sensation
tasting it = taste
hearing it crunch = sound
thoughts about cashews = just thoughts

I did this a few times over the weekend, though I couldn't get the forum to work on my phone so I didn't post about it.
I can feel thinking happening when I'm labelling things also, like thinking the words "seeing a cashew equals colour and image" but quietly and not very grabby-ly.

Something I did notice over the weekend is that thoughts that are grabby for me now are almost always formatted for production for someone else to consume. Like, depending on what it's about, the thought will become rehearsal for a speech, or rehearsal for a blog post, or rehearsal for a post in this thread.
As soon as I notice this is happening, it's obviously just a story, but I do tend to forget for a while.

[Anastacia42]

Excellent. You've got it.

Good noticing.

The site is having trouble. They're working on it.

Mind Labeling Experience

Here is an exercise which examines the way in which the mind labels experience - it takes about 20 minutes and you will need a pen a paper.

This exercise is broken into 10 minute lots. For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

For the first ten minutes write down what you are experiencing right now using the word “I”.

For example:

I am sitting on a chair,
I am hearing a clock ticking,
I am looking at a computer screen,
I am feeling hungry.

Get right to the point, no past or future fantasy, just a plain description of your experience right here and now.

Then for the next ten minutes continue writing down what you are experiencing but this time without using the word “I”. Just describe the experience as it is happening using verbs.

For example:

Sitting on a chair,
typing,
breathing,
blinking,
hearing the clock.

(Again, watch what is happening in the body.)

At the end of the twenty minutes compare the two ways in which the experience was labelled and answer the following four questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

2. What is here without labels?

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

Loving,

[gnomon]

For each 10 minute period pay attention to any bodily sensation i.e. is there any tightening, or any relaxing?

I did this for a shorter time, because the first part was very contracted and unpleasant and actually it's happening now as I type lol.

questions:

1. Is one truer than the other, and If so, which one?

the second one, yeah.

2. What is here without labels?

direct experience, I had to work to convert things into 'I am' language.

3. Do labels affect the experience or just describe it?

they don't change the experience, though they make it less fluid and more about thought than the other senses.

4. Did you notice any differences in the body?

yes, the first was very tight and contracted through the chest and shoulders, and also uncomfortable and bad for my blood pressure, lol.
The second was much more fleeting, descriptive of specific things like relaxing, breathing, or 'hand pressure' (i.e. a sensation).

[gnomon]

they don't change the experience, though they make it less fluid and more about thought than the other senses.

conflating two senses of experience, here, the specific sensory experience and the subjective experience overall. I'm aware this is also constructed, though I can't, like, just obviously tell that directly (most of the time?). so I might just know that :)

[Anastacia42]

Good job! It's a relief to read accurate answers to this. It confuses a lot of people.

You got this right, but here's the pointer, anyway.

Here is how to distinguish truth from lies. I'm sure I've talked about this.

We often lie every day & don't realize it.

For example, the grocery clerk asks, "How are you?" You reply, "I'm fine." While, yes. there is a sense in which we are always fine, even in the middle of suffering, at that moment, you were grieving the death of your dog, you had a slight sore throat & you had a headache, but you didn't feel like sharing all of that with the grocery clerk, so you lied, "I'm fine."

Also, it matters none at all how "distant" the remembered lie is. Besides the fact that time itself is fictional, a kind if lie, as we recall the lie it becomes present in this moment, as if it were happening now. This brings the body Sensation that accompanies lying.

Lies can be intentional or unintentional, conscious or unconscious, even so automatic that we ourselves are fooled.

The story of a separate "self" is a lie.

This is the lie you came here to see through. Therefore, it is helpful to notice the body Sensation of lying as one of the tools for finding the truth of no self.

You want to be in touch with body Sensations & able to clearly express them in words. This will help.

Lies are usually felt in the heart or solar plexus as a contraction that we may label as tight, heavy or tense.

In contrast, truth is usually expansive. We may call it loose, light or relaxed.

First, can you remember a time when you lied to someone you loved?

Here we count anything, lies we think of as "big" or "small" that "matter" or don't "matter."

How are you? I'm fine. No, your knee hurts, but you don't feel like discussing it with the grocery clerk.

It's a lie. A seemingly "bigger" one will work better for this exercise.

Find the lie. I don't need the whole story, just a few key words to refer to it.

Then scan your body for any Sensation (DE or Direct Experience), particularly in the gut or maybe the heart. Check very closely.

What is found?

If you think the memory you used wasn't clear enough, find another one or lie to yourself right now, make something up.

1 + 1 = 14 is a lie.

I love eating worms is (probably) a lie.

Or call up a video of a lying politician & notice what Sensations arise as you listen.

I will give you a clue: it is not that peaceful Sensation you felt before when you omitted "I." (refers to an exercise I gave before this one)

Please report back with what body Sensations (not interpretations) you feel. Bodies can feel hot or cold, heavy or light, contraction or expansion, etc.

"Peaceful" is an interpretation of a body Sensation, not the Sensation itself, for example.

Do you see that?

Loving,

[gnomon]

Do you see that?

Yes, I feel a contraction attached to lying, in my shoulders/chest/up into my neck and throat. there's a fast grab through my core as well but it's less clear to me than the upper stuff.

[Anastacia42]

Good. Keep paying attention to that.

Here is an exercise that makes it clear that labels are not the things they refer to. They are merely the content of thought that we made up.

Label-Reality Correlation

There is a belief that labels have a one-to-one correspondence with something called "reality." But there isn’t. Just like it is a generally accepted belief that labels like "good" and "bad" are inherent characteristics of "things." But actually, they are not.

When you look at the word GREEN’, what is the actual experience?

Is the red color "experienced" or is color green "experienced" as the label suggests?

Do the labels have a one-to-one correspondence with "reality?"

Or do the labels suggest something else other than what is here now (red color)?

Is green-ness an inherent attribute of the "experience" of the red color; or is green just a word label on the experience of the red color?

If the label ‘GREEN’ is replaced with the label ‘GOOD’ or ‘BAD’, is the redness affected in any way as the labels suggests?

Does redness become "good" or "bad," or do the labels have no effect whatsoever on ‘reality’?

[/color]
Loving